“Bob Lazar made up his entire cockamamie story about the UFO that he saw in a building inside Area-51. He was never exposed to any classified information, facilities, or programs in his work area.” ~Dr. Eric Davis
This article isn’t intended to cover all aspects of the Bob Lazar story as I’m not familiar with every detail. In fact, I’m only going to scratch the surface here. I intended to write a short blog entry about Davis’ comments but it turned into a little more than that. I already know there’s a TON of evidence (both pro and con) I have not covered here.
by Joe Murgia – @ufojoe11 on Twitter
November 28th, 2018
For those of you not familiar with the Bob Lazar story, take the time and watch this excellent lecture by George Knapp and this follow-up interview. I can’t recommend those two videos enough. Basically, Lazar claims that while employed at Los Alamos National Laboratories as a physicist, he was approached and hired to work south of Area 51 in Groom Lake at a location known as S-4 by EG&G, a defense contractor most famous for building nuclear weapons. He says that between December of 1988 and April of 1989, he worked there as a senior staff physicist and worked on/reversed-engineered, extraterrestrial craft, aka flying saucers, that were in the possession of our government. Lazar went public with his story in May of 1989 via George Knapp on KLAS.
In late March of this year, I was checking out George Knapp’s Facebook page and stumbled upon a debate about the upcoming documentary, “Bob Lazar: Area 51 and Flying Saucers” by filmmaker, Jeremy Corbell. You can watch the trailer here.
Astrophysicist, Dr. Eric W. Davis, was engaging in the debate and posting his very strong comments about the upcoming film and Lazar. According to the website of EarthTech International, where he works as the Chief Science Officer, Davis’ “research specializations include breakthrough propulsion physics for interstellar flight, interstellar flight science, beamed energy propulsion, advanced space nuclear power and propulsion, directed energy weapons, future and transformational technology, general relativity theory, quantum field theory, quantum gravity theories, experimental quantum optics, and SETI-xenoarchaeology.”
Davis was also featured in the Corbell documentary, “Hunt for the Skinwalker” where he shared his experiences related to the investigation into Skinwalker Ranch, a location where many incidents of apparent, paranormal activity have been reported. Davis has spoken about his own UFO sightings and has stated his opinion about what’s in the Pentagon’s UFO videos:
Whatever is in the videos “isn’t human, it’s not natural, it’s under artificial control,” says Eric W. Davis, the astrophysicist who wrote the study on wormholes and stargates. “We don’t know where it comes from. But it’s here, and has been here for some time.”
That quote was in the Washington Post and as you can see, Dr. Eric Davis is not a debunker of all things UFOs. Far from it, in fact. I think that’s important to know when you read the comments he made about Lazar and the upcoming documentary. The following is from an exchange Davis and I had on Knapp’s Facebook page. As with all transcripts and quotes, I edited lightly for clarity and grammar.
Please note that George Knapp’s Facebook posts are set to public so anybody can read them, like them or comment on them. Eric Davis did not know this. He thought he was sharing his personal thoughts/opinions on a private forum. Davis was not representing EarthTech whatsoever and he was not being interviewed by me. I put the back and forth between Davis and I in an interview format because it’s easier to read. Also, he had nothing to do with me writing this article and had no idea I was working on it.
Eric Davis: “Lazar isn’t worth a documentary film.”
Joe Murgia: “Well, you might want to see the documentary first before making such a judgment, Eric. Unless maybe you’ve seen a rough cut of the film? George Knapp has spoken about how some witnesses he tried to speak to about Lazar were harassed and in some cases, threatened. That in itself tells me Bob had something to say that certain people didn’t want corroborated.
“This (transcript of an excerpt from C2C) alone makes me want to see a doc about Bob. Back when ‘C2C was a must listen. Now that’s only when GK hosts.”
(I then posted this short transcript from Coast to Coast (C2C) so Davis could see it and comment for himself ~Joe)
George Knapp: “When Bob [Lazar] thought he was going to be…I probably shouldn’t say this but I’ll go ahead. When Bob thought he was going to be taken out, he had this particle accelerator in his house. And he had this container with the [Element] 115 in it, right in front of it. And he was ready to flip the switch and say goodbye to Las Vegas, I think.”
Art Bell: “Oh my God!”
Knapp: “I don’t know if that was a dramatic gesture or what it was…but thank God he didn’t do it.”
Art Bell: “I’ve never heard this!”
Knapp: “Yeah, well it’s not a pretty picture.”
(Back to the debate on Knapp’s Facebook page.)
Eric Davis: “Nobody can put a particle accelerator in their home unless the house or their entire property is dozens of square miles in size.
“Element 115 first got synthesized by the Russians in 2003 and was internationally labeled and recognized as element 115 named Muscovium in Dec. 2015. Muscovium’s four isotopes have a half life ranging from 37 milliseconds to 650 milliseconds. So it is impossible for Lazar to have any Muscovite isotope in his house nor the gigantic particle accelerators that produced it via the collisions of other large atoms.
“Also, a Roadrunner (who ran programs at Area-51 for Los Alamos) told me that he knew Lazar’s female supervisor at Area-51 and had her pull up his personnel file. Lazar worked as a radiation health monitor in the unsecured logistics contractor facility outside of Area-51, so he was never inside that site, and he never held security clearances because he didn’t need them to work in an unclassified area. Lazar made up his entire cockamamie story about the UFO that he saw in a building inside Area-51. He was never exposed to any classified information, facilities, or programs in his work area.”
Joe Murgia: “I’m sure that’s news to George Knapp. And I’m not talking about the alleged particle accelerator stuff. And if Bob’s story was all made up, and he had no access to classified info., then why were so many people harassed or threatened when George Knapp tried to talk to them about Lazar? Or are you going to tell us that George and all of those witnesses are lying, too?
Eric Davis: “I gave you the facts. Claims of harassed and threatened people is unsubstantiated hearsay. George is not lying. He just does not know my Roadrunner contact who lived in Las Vegas near Indian Springs and worked at Area-51, and knew Lazar’s supervisor there at the time all this unfolded.”
Joe Murgia: “Somebody told you that somebody told them? Sounds like hearsay. And just for the record, I don’t have much time invested reading/watching material about the Lazar story and don’t have strong opinions about it/him. But when so many people (even if it’s hearsay) tell George that they were harassed/threatened, I give it some weight. Appreciate you sharing what you learned. Would love it if George chimed in.”
George Knapp never chimed in. He’s a busy guy. So I reached out to Jeremy Corbell and Knapp to see if they would share their thoughts on Davis’ comments. Unfortunately, at this time, I’ve been unable to get a comment from either one of them. But I fully expect that to change in the near future when they’re done with their commitments related to “Hunt for the Skinwalker” and “Bob Lazar: Area 51 and Flying Saucers.” And when that happens, I’ll update this article or write a another one.
Davis was at it again a few days ago, posting on Knapp’s Facebook page after Knapp posted an article about actor Mickey Rourke narrating Corbell’s film.
Eric Davis: “As if Lazar’s verifiably false claims deserve a public stage. It was impossible for Lazar to do Ph.D. level work at LANL because he only had a high school education with a C average grade, thus he had no education or training to be a scientist. He did not take high school physics. His job was radiation health monitor which did not require security clearances so he did not get access to Area-51 since his workstation was at the off-site logistics support facility which is unclassified. He’s also a convicted felon in the state of Nevada.
“In civil society having been charged with and convicted of a felony crime in a court of law by one’s peers directly impugns one’s credibility, truthfulness, and obedience to the law. These three items go to the heart of why some people fail to earn security clearances. Lazar never had security clearances to begin with because his EG&G job at the unclassified, physically disconnected Area-51 logistics support facility didn’t require security clearances.”
After seeing these comments, I reached out to Davis to see if he could add any more thoughts or details about the Lazar story. He responded but said he’s too busy at the moment to answer my questions. When he responds, I’ll let you know.
To me, a big data point in Lazar’s favor is how he knew where and when to go in order to view something in the nighttime sky being flown over the Groom Mountains near Area 51. Three Wednesdays in a row, he took friends and family out there. And on various nights, they all saw a light that appeared to jump around like so many UFOs we’ve seen on video. It’s hard to see any details but something was up there. How did he know? Did he just get lucky?
From the website, Other Hand:
March 22, 1989: First Wednesday night trip to Tikaboo Valley to view disc test. Observers were RL, Tracy Lazar, Gene Huff and John Lear, using Lear’s RV. Lear was the only one who saw the elliptical shaped light through a telescope and the total sighting lasted about 7 minutes.
March 29, 1989: Second Wednesday night trip to view test. Observers were RL, Tracy Lazar, Gene Huff and Jim Tagliani. They took a videotape of a moving light with a timestamp of 8:30 PM shown on the tape.
April 5, 1989: Third Wednesday night trip to view test. Observers were RL, Tracy Lazar, her sister, Gene Huff and John Lear. They were discovered by guards and detained and questioned by the Lincoln County Sheriff.
Among the most talked about issues against Lazar are his claims that he received a master’s degree from Cal Tech and MIT. There’s no proof he attended either school let alone received a master’s degree.
One of the most prominent Lazar critics has been researcher, Stanton Friedman. He wrote this article, “The Bob Lazar Fraud,” back in 1997. Here’s a short excerpt:
He was publicly asked when he got his MS from MIT. He said “Let me see now, I think it was probably 1982.” Nobody getting an MS from MIT would not know the year immediately. He was asked to name some of his profs, He said: “Let’s see now, Bill Duxler will remember me from the physics department at Caltech.” I located Dr. Duxler. He’s a Pierce Junior College physics prof, and never taught at Caltech. Lazar was registered in one of his courses at the same time Lazar was supposedly at MIT! Nobody who can go to MIT goes to Pierce JC, not to mention the rather long commute between LA and Cambridge, Mass.
In a recent interview with Richard Dolan, Jeremy Corbell tried to clear up some of the mystery about Lazar’s education and specifically, Caltech:
I have had multiple communications with somebody who has known Bob Lazar prior to Bob Lazar being known as Bob the UFO guy. This individual knew him in LA. This individual actually used to drop [Lazar] off at Caltech. So think about that for a second. So if Bob Lazar’s lying about his education…lying about all that stuff, you know…which I’m willing to accept. That has nothing to do with Area 51. I would be willing to accept that. But he was making a good show of it all the way back then when he had nothing.
Remember, Dr. Eric Davis’ claims that Lazar’s “job was radiation health monitor which did not require security clearances so he did not get access to Area-51 since his workstation was at the off-site logistics support facility which is unclassified…Lazar never had security clearances to begin with because his EG&G job at the unclassified, physically disconnected Area-51 logistics support facility didn’t require security clearances.”
In 2015, Corbell did some sleuthing and found and interviewed physicist, Robert Krangle, who worked at Los Alamos and says he saw Lazar there. Krangle says that he recognized Lazar as a physicist and they attended the same security meetings:
Krangle – Well he was a physicist which, I’m a physicist. We kind of recognize each other. You know it’s the classic pocket condom with all the proper different color pens (laughter) … he fit that mold. If nobody would’ve told me he was a physicist, one look, [you would know] he’s a physicist. He’s properly dressed in geekdome.
Corbell – Did people tell you he’s a physicist? Was it ever explained to you?
Krangle – In some conversations, you know, somebody would be talking about what somebody was doing … and they’d point over … and that’s him over there.
Corbell – You have a direct individual memory of being in a security briefing at Los Alamos with Bob Lazar?
Krangle – Yeah, I remember seeing him.
Corbell – What was your impression of what Bob was doing at Los Alamos in the 80s?
Krangle – Well, at the time I was there, I really didn’t know what specifically Bob was doing, we didn’t work together, we simply crossed paths … at least in glancing view. I didn’t know what he was up to anymore than he knew what I was up to.
Corbell – But you did know that he was a physicist?
Krangle – Yes.
Corbell – And that was very clear to you, that he was a physicist at Los Alamos and not again like, the janitor?
Krangle – Right. And in conversations with some of my colleagues … you know again sitting over lunch, we would be talking about something something happening or, who’s doing something. It’s okay to talk amongst yourselves, your just not allowed to tell your wife or your kids what you’re doing. And somebody would lean over and say that’s Bob over there … he working on something something project.
A few weeks after Corbell posted his interview with Krangle, Friedman was asked about it on the Dr. J Radio Live show:
I called [Krangle]…and I spoke with him. We had a long talk. Very comfortable talking to him. He’s a scientist who worked from time to time as a consultant to Los Alamos. And there were a couple of things that were clear. One: No surprise. He had seen Bob Lazar at Los Alamos. And I say no surprise because the phone book for Los Alamos had Bob’s name in it. There aren’t a lot of Robert S. Lazars, you know. And that was the number, as it happens, of the big, Clinton P. Anderson, Meson Accelerator. A unique nuclear physics facility. That doesn’t make him a scientist because they’ve got all types of technicians out there.
But there’s no question he was there and there’s no question he had a security clearance. You can’t get into Los Alamos and spend any time there without a security clearance! You certainly can’t work there without one. That’s the rule of the game. Whenever I visited there, when I was working on nuclear rockets for Westinghouse, our security officer had to send my credentials, an indication of my security level…my clearance level, to Los Alamos. I couldn’t get in without that.
So, okay…he verified that Bob had been seen there and that Bob had a security clearance. He was at briefings that had classified material. However(!), when I asked him, well did you check on his credentials in any way? No, of course not. Why would he? Now, he said he looked like a scientist. He had the pocket protector, the glasses. Everybody thought of him as doing some kind of scientific work and I’ve never denied that.
He’s bright. He built a jet-powered car. He puts on fireworks displays. I don’t doubt that he did some technical work at Los Alamos. But how you go from that to back engineering flying saucers?
So Dr. Krangle did provide evidence for those who think that Bob never worked at Los Alamos and those who didn’t think he had a security clearance. He did not provide any particular indication that Bob was a scientist or worked anywhere – Area 51 or S-4 or whatever – on back engineering UFOs, which is the whole thing that makes his story so exciting.
Dr. Krangle didn’t say, oh yes, I checked and he was. a physicist working for Los Alamos. I saw his name, his job title or whatever on some kind of piece of paper. And Krangle agreed with me that talking about 500 pounds of Element 115 seemed way beyond reality.
As I mentioned to Dr. Davis, one of the things that makes me seriously consider the possibility that Lazar is telling the truth has to do with the many witnesses George Knapp has tried to interview about information related to Lazar’s claims. Actually, after listening to one of Knapp’s lectures again, it was information related to UFOs, flying disks and/or UFO wreckage at or near Area 51. Some of it is similar to what Lazar has claimed. If all these people were lying and making up stories, why were so many of them harassed or intimidated when they offered to share what they knew? Davis calls their stories hearsay because we don’t hear from them directly. But we’re not in a court of law so I have no problem considering what Knapp has said about them when I’m trying to decipher the Lazar conundrum.
They were following us around everywhere we went. Into bars, to work. I had a series of phone calls at the station – this really ticks me off – people who called up, offering to give me additional information about Area 51. Six people who had called to offer me additional information and agreed to be interviewed, were visited one right after another.
There was a guy who was a tax preparer. His name was Roy Birom. He did tax returns for officers at Nellis Air Force Base and he got to know them pretty well. And they were on an out of own trip when they were sitting around, drinking some beers, and these guys told him about Area 51, flying saucers, S-4, the whole story as told by Bob. He agrees to tell me that story on the phone. The very next day, he gets visited. These two guys who said they’re from the Secret Service. They said, “We hear you’ve been issuing threats against the life of the president. And we can tell ya, that if you’re talking to the wrong people and saying the wrong things, you can go to prison.” Well, he saw that as a threat because of him talking to me.
Listen here (it’s cued up) as Knapp explains what all the other witnesses told him and how they were harassed or threatened. It’s worth the time and may make you reconsider the question of whether Bob Lazar is telling the truth.
Those witnesses were not the only ones who were visited after talking about Area 51 or the Bob Lazar story. Corbell also shared this during his interview with Dolan:
This guy I’m talking with, his name is Jim Tagliani. He knew Bob before. He knew him from LA. He knew Bob when Bob felt sorry for John Lear for believing in UFOs because he was from a prominent family. And Bob felt all UFOs were fantasy. And Jim Tagliani, he worked at Area 52 – confirmed – at the exact time that Bob Lazar was coming forward on the news. So here’s a guy, in a position, at Area 52 and a story that people don’t know.
He mentioned some workers at Area 52, up at Tonapah Test Range, where all the stealth stuff was being done, the night that Bob Lazar first went on the news with George Knapp to protect himself. Long time friend. And he got detained after that. He had the internal investigation team – whoever they were, I don’t remember the name of the office – that detained him and questioned him about his knowledge and relationship with this guy, Bob Lazar. So clearly, what Bob did, came forward, was high on the radar. And I gotta tell you, his friend believes him. His friend believes him without a shadow of a doubt.
Regarding other people who do not believe Lazar, Dolan shared this colorful anecdote:
When I wrote my second volume of ‘UFOs and the National Security State,’ – it came out almost ten years ago – that was a book where I spent about ten or twelve pages on Lazar. And it was out of six hundred pages. But still it was a lot of work to do Lazar. And I noticed in the ramp up to the publication of that, there was a lot of anticipation…what I thought about Lazar. And I went to a conference at the end of 2008. This was a few months before that book came out. John Alexander was there. If anyone knows about John Alexander, he’s a very interesting character in this field. And he came right up to me and he wanted to know what I thought of Lazar.
And I said, “Well, I suppose I give his story a great deal of credibility.” And he was like, (Dolan impersonating Alexander’s voice) “Lazar is a complete liar, a phony. Don’t believe a word he says.” And he got right in my face that whole conference. I couldn’t get away.
As soon as Alexander walked away, within two minutes, another individual who knew Bob from way back – a fella name Ron Regere – a good friend of mine. He’s studied, researched UFOs out of Utah for many, many years. A defense contractor. Ron says, “I’m just here to tell you. Bob Lazar? 100% authentic.” He said, “I knew him back in the day. We blew things up. Bob was always blowing things up out in the desert. Absolutely, 100% honest.” So within like two minutes of each other, I had these two people with diametrically, opposite opinions.
I reached out to Dr. Alexander to get his side of the story and to get his thoughts on Lazar. According to his bio, “After retiring from the Army, Dr. Alexander joined Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) where he was instrumental in developing the concept of Non-Lethal Defense.” Alexander’s take on meeting Dolan wasn’t as dramatic:
Dr. John Alexander: Never got in anybody’s face on the issue. And not only is [Lazar’s] educational history bogus, but so is the part about Los Alamos National Laboratories. He did work at LANL but not for LANL. Huge difference. Also, I asked Ed, as he likes to call him.
Joe Murgia: Would Lazar have needed a security clearance to work at LANL?
Dr. John Alexander: Not necessarily, but possibly, depending on the job.
The “Ed” that Alexander was referring to is Edward Teller, a theoretical physicist known as the father of the hydrogen bomb. Lazar has stated that Teller helped him get hired at S-4. Teller has declined to discuss Lazar on camera. Go listen to the entire, excellent interview Dolan did with Corbell and you’ll see there’s more evidence pointing to Lazar and Teller meeting each other plus a whole lot more in favor of Lazar. It’s just too much to cover in one article.
I want to finish off with this quote for the pro-Lazar folks. This is from Dolan during his interview with Corbell:
Lazar…he’s been such a polarizing figure. I affirmably believe…that he’s polarizing because he’s telling the truth. And when you’ve got someone who’s telling the truth in such a provocative, profound way – because this is a profound truth – there’s going to be a tremendous amount of pushback. And I think that’s completely all that we’ve been seeing is this very significant pushback because of the nature of what he’s had to say.
Corbell responded very briefly to Ryan @PostDisclosure who asked about the comments from Davis and Friedman.
There are lots of reasons to believe Lazar and lots of reasons to disbelieve. Before I wrote this article I was 50/50. But now, I think I’m at 60/40 in favor of believing him or at least believing that some of the things he’s described as happening at S-4, have actually happened at some point in time. And a big reason for that is the numerous other people who have shared similar stories with George Knapp. Are they all lying? Did they all make up a tall tale (about being harassed or intimidated) in order to avoid speaking with Knapp? I don’t think so.
Eric Davis doesn’t believe Lazar had a security clearance. Stanton Friedman is sure he had one. And John Alexander said not necessarily but possible, depending on the job. This is a perfect example of why the Lazar story is so confusing. These are three very intelligent men and (Davis & Friedman) respected scientists who all the share the same opinion that Lazar didn’t work at S-4. But they don’t agree on such an important aspect of the story: Did Lazar have a security clearance? I’m no security clearance expert (to put it mildly) but to me, Alexander’s answer makes the most sense.
I don’t consider the Krangle story strong evidence that Lazar was a physicist at LANL. Lazar looked like a physicist? As far as evidence, that’s not worth much, IMO. Lazar very well may have been a physicist but nothing Krangle said was convincing enough for me. But that’s just one piece of evidence in favor of Lazar. I didn’t even come close to covering all of the pros and cons.
Is it possible Bob was employed as a radiation health monitor but felt it was beneath him so he gave off the appearance of being a physicist to feel more important. Possible?
I’ve seen some folks suggests that Davis is making these comments because he’s jealous of Lazar and the notoriety he has achieved. I don’t get that vibe from Davis at all.
Friedman’s work on Lazar’s background should be commended. And I don’t disagree with most of what he has written and said about him. I think he’s been fair. I’m still very open to the possibility that Friedman, Davis and Alexander are right and Lazar never made it to S-4.
I’d like to see Lazar’s friend, (who says he dropped him off at Caltech) Dr. Krangle, Tagliani and any other pro-Lazar witnesses go on camera and tell their stories. But I don’t think we’re going to get a lot of that in Corbell’s film. He’s focused on Lazar the person and I get that. If you get to know Lazar the man and feel that he’s an honest guy, you believe his story. After hearing various interviews with Corbell, I think that’s what he’s going for. I’ll know for sure after I see the film. And yes, I’m excited to see it. I enjoyed “Hunt For The Skinwalker” (especially the Knapp reports) and I’m sure I’ll enjoy the Lazar film. Whether it convinces me that Lazar is telling the truth is another story.
Corbell and Lazar were on Coast to Coast AM the other night with George Knapp hosting. What I would really love to see is a debate or roundtable that includes those three plus Eric Davis, Stanton Friedman and John Alexander. Part of an investigation includes getting the other side. Right now, Davis, Friedman and Alexander are all very intelligent, pro-UFO guys who don’t believe Lazar. And they represent the other side. IMO, they should be included in some of the discussions about this topic. If they’re shown to be misinformed or ignorant about certain facts, so be it. They can handle it.
George Knapp, Jeremy Corbell, Richard Dolan, Stanton Friedman, Eric Davis and John Alexander are all people I respect. When they speak, I listen. While they have strong opinions in favor or against Lazar’s story being true, many of us (like me) are somewhere in the middle. And for me, it’s been very difficult to figure out the truth. Hopefully, that changes in the near future.
And BTW, it’s hard not to like a guy (Davis) who can work the word “cockamamie” into his argument.
Okay, since I started writing these opinions, I’m back to 50/50. 🙂
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