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by Joe Murgia – @ufojoe11 on Twitter
I Can’t Believe It! They’re Out!
After almost two months of being in a holding pattern, it finally happened. The cat was out of the bag and posted on Twitter.
Now that the documents were spreading quickly, I asked Dr. Davis for his thoughts. “No comment” was the reply. That was the first time he failed to answer one of my question. “No comment” was an answer but he usually writes long, educational and thoughtful replies. The next day, researcher James Iandoli also received a “no comment” from Davis, as did a few other researchers. To me, that really drove home the fact that this was a sensitive issue and made me feel confident we did the right thing in waiting. For others, his refusal to comment meant nothing and some felt he was just playing games with the UFO community. That thought never crossed my mind. But what did cross my mind and the minds of others: If these were fake documents, why didn’t he just say so? No comment? Why let us twist in the wind? But I believe there was a method to his madness. I’ll address that later.
Grant Cameron, who’s been at this for a long time, has done several, excellent videos of the history of these documents. Here’s one.
Giuliano Marinkovic, Billy Cox and Richard Dolan have also been on this story since the early days. Project Unity, a newcomer, has done some great work, too. You can get a lot more details related to these notes/documents and all the names and details of the people mentioned if you check out their work. But here, I’m just going to summarize the most important parts for those who are unfamiliar with this saga. And I highly suggest you read them and read them again. They’re easily the most entertaining documents I’ve ever come across on this subject.
What Happened in Vegas?
According to the notes, on October 16th, 2002, Dr. Davis was told to go to the EG&G Special Projects building in Las Vegas at 10am for a meeting with Admiral Wilson, who had retired as the Director of the DIA three and a half months prior on July 29th. Dr. Davis was told to be on time. Wilson, now a civilian and dressed in a suit, arrived ten minutes late and was accompanied by a Lieutenant, a Commander and a petty officer who drove. Dr. Davis got into Wilson’s car, which was parked in the back.
(Background on the Oke Shannon/Dr. Davis connection as researcher Grant Cameron describes the moment he first looked at the documents – “And I’m looking at this document and I see Oke Shannon on the front cover of this document. And I go, “Oh my God.” Because I know who Oke Shannon is. Nobody else knows who Oke Shannon is. Twenty years ago, Eric Davis gave me a set of notes from the UFO working group. Twenty-six, twenty-seven pages. So, he gives me these documents and he says, ‘They’re Oke Shannon’s notes and you can’t release them until Oke passes away.” So I said, “Okay, fine.” So I’ve held these documents for like twenty years and they’re hand-written documents and they’re inside the UFO working group that John Alexander put out. And Kit Green was [at] the first meeting, Hal Puthoff was there, Ron Blackburn. All these guys with Top Secret SCI clearances, there’s about twenty of them.
And remember when I had it, the rumor got around that I had them. I had shown them at a conference. I just showed the first page that showed it was Top Secret Restricted, which is the same classification as the Majestic 12 document: Top Secret Restricted. So I put it on the screen, just for half a second, without Oke Shannon’s name on there. And then I get home and then Hal Puthoff contacts me and Hal says, “I understand you’ve got a list of names of a group that I was supposedly a part of.” And I go, “Yeah, I do!” He said, “Could I get them, please?” So I don’t put Oke Shannon’s name and I leave one other name out and I sent it to Hal. I never heard from him again, so he basically confirmed that these were real. So Eric Davis gives me these notes that are originally from Oke Shannon. So when I’m sitting in the Aquarius hotel, in the front lobby and I look at this document on this little iPad, I see Oke Shannon’s name and I go, “Oke Shannon.” And then I see Eric Davis, his notes and I go, “Oh! Those two guys! This is the whole deal. He had give me the notes before.” And I go, “What the heck is going on here?” ~Joe)
Wilson said Oke Shannon (a scientist) spoke to him for two hours and tried to convince him to talk to Dr. Davis about what he (Wilson) told Will Miller on April 10th, 1997 in the Pentagon and then two months later in June. The April date was when the briefing with Miller, Dr. Mitchell, Dr. Greer, Shari Adamiak and Stephen Lovekin took place and when Wilson received the code words from the first page of the NRO documents Miller and Greer gave him so he could attempt to locate the UFO-related USAP. June appears to be the time Wilson told Miller the results of that search. Dr. Mitchell said a gentleman got back to him a few weeks after the April briefing but I think a few months (June) is more likely. And I’m not sure if that person who called Dr. Mitchell was Wilson or Miller. I’d go with Miller. Either way, I have no doubt Dr. Mitchell was informed about what Wilson found.
Oke Shannon also wanted Wilson to talk with Dr. Davis about Leslie Kean’s Boston Globe article, the “UFO topic – crashed/retrieved UFO craft/bodies, etc. and an MJ-12 like UFO organization (or cabal).”
Wilson confirmed the meeting on April 10th of 1997 took place in the Pentagon Conference room with Adm. Mike Crawford, Gen. Patrick Hughes (Wilson’s boss and director of the DIA), and others. After that meeting broke up, Miller and Wilson talked privately for two hours about UFOs, MJ-12, Roswell and crashed UFOs/alien bodies. Wilson was intrigued. He knew about the intelligence gathered on U.S. military/intelligence UFO close encounters and foreign government encounters as he had seen the records and told Miller.
Wilson confirmed that Miller asked the question on MJ-12/UFO cabal – crashed UFO, confirmed he called Miller in late June of 1997 and told Miller he was right. There is such an organization in existence.
Wilson told Miller he found it and he told him where he looked and who he talked to, but did not name everyone.
Davis showed Wilson the letter Miller wrote to him (Davis) and asked Wilson to evaluate it. Wilson laughs and says he didn’t tell Miller everything! Wilson tells Davis that Miller knew about the Pentagon Records Group search he (Wilson) conducted but that’s it. Says that Miller can make an educated guess on which contractors have alien hardware. Tells Davis not to pay Miller his fees and mentions his nice Florida home with beach access. (I’ve been to Miller’s house. It’s not on the beach and it’s nothing fancy. It’s nice but nothing extravagant whatsoever ~Joe).
Wilson says Miller can give good advice on which defense companies to look at but that’s all he knows.
Oke Shannon told Wilson all about JA (might be John Alexander). Says he doesn’t trust him and he’s a liar.
The “AP-10” group meets at BDM – Braddock Dunn & McDonald, a technical service firm and respected defense contractor. This might be a reference to John Alexander’s Advanced Theoretical Physics (UFO) study group that met at BDM, a respected defense contractor.
Wilson says that he and Shannon discussed remote viewing (structured technique intended to bring out whatever natural intuitive/psychic talent an individual possesses. ~Joe)
Shannon said Davis was a team player, would keep his mouth shut, no media connections, obey all restrictions – not in government/no clearances. Excellent pedigree and professional/personal references are excellent.
Wilson very angry at Miller because he violated personal and professional trust – especially among intelligence colleagues/Navy officers by sharing their private conversations with Greer and Mitchell. There’s Navy camaraderie among officers – a brotherhood.
Miller told Mitchell and Greer about their (Miller/Wilson) conversation. How much did Miller tell Kean?
Wilson tells Davis, “If you blow my trust, I’ll deny meeting you, deny everything said won’t meet with any more people (without clearances) to talk about this topic – too risky because of security violation just by mentioning it – very tightly held info. – absurdly closely held subject matter – never seen anything like this program in black program community.”
A week after his meeting/briefing with Miller, Mitchell and Greer in April 1997, Wilson went looking for the program for the next 45 days. He made calls, knocked on doors and talked to people.
Wilson explained that a program was buried in a set of highly secure, Special Access Programs (SAPs) that dealt with crashed/recovered UFOs and it was in the hands of one of the top, private, aerospace/defense contractors in the United States. He used the words, “the best one of them” but wouldn’t name this company because it was a “Core Secret.” That term would come up several times. The obvious candidates are Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Grumman Northrop, General Dynamics and a few others.
According to Wilson, this program was part of a set of unacknowledged SAPs (USAP) and buried/covered by conventional SAPs. (Dr. Greer has hammered home these USAPs for a few decades now and named one of his documentaries after the term. I think he deserves credit for educating people about that ~Joe)
Wilson was told of a special projects record group not belonging to usual SAP – a special subset of the unacknowledged/carve-outs/waived programs – not belonging to usual SAP divisions as organized in 1994 by Sec of Defense William Perry – set apart from rest but buried/covered by conventional SAPs. Found an unusual record group – read the index abstracts.
What SAP compartment did he find it in? Wilson won’t answer. Core Sceret.
Code Name? Won’t say. Core Secret.
Project contractor? Aerospace technology contractor – one of the top ones in the U.S..
Who? Won’t say. Core Secret.
Once Wilson determined who these folks were, he called them and told them he wanted to know about their crashed UFO program and what their role in that was, what they had, etc. Wilson asked them if they heard of MJ-12 or some such organization code related to crashed/recovered UFO craft. Their answer was…Yes!
Wilson was able to set up a meeting with their program director, corporate attorney and security director and flew out in mid-June. They told him they were nearly outed years ago because an audit investigation led to them. Gave auditor a full tour, then struck a deal with the Pentagon SAPOC (SAP Oversight Committee) to prevent it from happening again.
Wilson demanded a formal briefing and tour as he was the Deputy Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency and had oversight over this program. Or so he thought. But he was told he did not have the need-to-know and access was denied. Not on a bigot list. He was livid. He argued to no avail. Wilson was able to see the bigot list and it contained mostly civilians and no politicians.
Their program manager said they were:
Not any weapons program
Not any intelligence program
Not any special ops or logistics program
Wilson asked what they were if not all those other possiblities. They went on to admit they were a reverse-engineering program and had access to an intact craft/UFO of unknown origin (although, “they had some ideas on this”) that had crashed years ago and been retrieved. And, they believed it “could fly (space?, air?, water?, dimensions?).” And it was “technology that was not of this Earth – not made by man – not by human hands” and they were trying to understand and exploit the technology. Their program had been going on for “years and years” and progress was “agonizingly slow with little or no success” due to the lack (400-800 workers) of cleared personnel/experts who could collaborate on the work.
Wilson asked them the questions Miller had about Roswell (craft/bodies/autopsies), Holloman AFB Landing, MJ-12 and leaked docs, Zamora and Bentwaters case. No response.
Wilson says comparing Corso story to what he learned from these folks was more than enough to believe Corso told the truth about seeing “alien” hardware.
While they were willing to share some information, in the end, Wilson was turned away and unable to tour the facility. He threatened to file a complaint but these folks wouldn’t budge. So he followed through and filed a complaint with the Special Access Program Oversight Committee (SAPOC). In the end, he was told they were siding with the contractor and he should “immediately drop the matter and let it go – forget about it” as it wasn’t within his oversight. Despite him being angry and yelling, he was told if he didn’t drop it, he’d get early retirement, “lose 1 or 2 stars” and wouldn’t see his next promotion to Director of DIA.
Jacques Gansler was new Under Secretary of Defense for Acquistion and Sustainment. He was briefed on the UFO crash retrieval program: UFOs real and so-called alien abductions are not.
Wilson prefers never to talk to anyone else about this again – risk exposure – better to stop talking, cut it off here
The documents read like a transcript but nobody knows if that’s because the conversation was recorded or Dr. Davis took copious notes during or right after the meeting. Towards the end of the conversation, Wilson asks, “What will you do with this?” That sounds like Dr. Davis was recording and Wilson knew. I also have my own reasons for believing it was recorded. Once again, assuming this meeting actually took place. I’m convinced it did but there are still a few folks out there who are skeptical. Assuming it’s legit, we don’t know if every detail of what Wilson said to Davis is true. Maybe the contractor fed Wilson a mix of truth and disinformation and maybe the docs also have a little disinfo. sprinkled in with reality? We may never know.
Included in the Wilson/Davis documents was a purported April 25th, 2002 letter from Commander Miller (excerpt seen above) to Dr. Davis, dealing with related subjects. Researchers Frank Stalter and Chant Hannah spoke to Miller over the phone and Skype a few times and he said he didn’t remember writing certain parts of the letter and had looked through his files and couldn’t locate it. To him, it appeared like a cut and paste job that included a few things he had said in the past but he didn’t think he wrote some of the more controversial aspects of the letter like on page two where he wrote that he knows the location of a senior officer who has knowledge of alien reproduction vehicles. Also on page 2, Miller writes he knows government contractors who “have current involvement and knowledge of USG work in alien-derived technologies, crashes, landings and associated events.” He also denied knowing about the Zamora case, which, according to the Wilson/Davis documents, Miller asked Wilson to check into if he located the UFO/crash retrieval USAP. So, is the letter fake? Just keep in mind, in that letter to Dr. Davis, Miller made it clear that, “there must be absolutely NO mention or association of my name with your work or investigation. I have absolutely nothing to gain from such association at this time, and possibly much to lose.” So, if the letter is legitimate (it is), Miller’s denial shouldn’t really come as a surprise to anyone. He needs to protect himself and others.
Stalter has also repeatedly pointed out that in the documents Wilson talks about “Rich” and “Doug” from the new, AFIO (Association of Retired Intelligence Officers) Las Vegas chapter and how they need speakers to help raise money and membership. Stalter believes if the Wilson/Davis document is real, Wilson would have been a speaker there. So he got a quote from John Alexander.
But in the documents, Wilson was on a tour, audit and to say goodbye. We have no idea how long he may have been in Vegas. Would he have had time to lecture? Stalter says there’s no evidence for Wilson being in Vegas and as of right now, he’s right. Doesn’t change my opinion.
As far as where the documents originated? Thanks to the work of researcher Keith Basterfield, that mystery has been solved.
I had located the person who had provided Canadian researcher Grant Cameron, with Grant’s copy of the Davis/Wilson document. He is a fellow Australian named James Rigney, who has had a long term interest in the subject of UFOs. From information provided in the Davis/Wilson document and the two others subsequently released, I had deduced that the original source of James’ copies of the documents, was the files of the late Doctor Edgar Mitchell. James has confirmed to me that the source of his copies of the documents, was indeed someone who had obtained them, from the files of Edgar Mitchell.
On July 5th, 2019, a month after the documents surfaced, Billy Cox made a call to Alaska and spoke with retired USAF Gen. Joseph Ralston, “former Vice Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and erstwhile member of the Pentagon’s Special Access Program Oversight Committee (SAPOC).” Ralston told Cox that back in 1997, Wilson briefed him every morning and the two worked “very closely together.” But he didn’t recall Wilson ever discussing UFOs or being denied access to a crash retrieval USAP. “I don’t recall specifically anything about that in 1997. It could’ve happened, I just don’t know,” he said.
Two days after his conversation with Ralston, Cox searched an online directory and found, “the phone number of one of the Pentagon’s 1997 Senior Review Group (SRG) members – that’s the panel that decides who gets briefed on classified programs and who doesn’t.” He called and discovered the number had been disconnected. Thinking he may have written the number down wrong, he went back and found “the entire entry had been deleted – name, address, everything – as if it had never been there.” That’s a very weird coincidence.
As noted in the documents, a scientist named Oke Shannon encouraged Wilson to meet with Davis and helped make it happen. As he had done with other relevant people, Billy Cox successfully tracked him down and asked the question.
“I don’t know the provenance of that purported document – I don’t know whether it’s real or not real,” Shannon said. “Let’s just leave it at the fact that I do know both of these gentlemen. Tom Wilson is an honorable man. And if this has embarrassed Tom Wilson, I am really sorry.”
“Embarrassed” in that context can be taken so many different ways so I’ll avoid the speculation and move on. In December of 2019, Cox worked his magic one more time. Another name mentioned in the document was Dr. Paul Kaminski, who has an impeccable resume. When Wilson went looking for this program in 1997, Kaminski was Director of Special Programs in the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisitions, Technology and Logistics. According to the notes, Wilson was in Kaminski’s office in 1997, trying to confirm he had the right contractor involved with this UFO program. When contacted by Cox, Kaminsky said he didn’t think he knew Wilson and didn’t recall meeting him, but it’s possible he did. But what did he know about a Special Access Program related to UFOs?
“There are special access programs which are very important to national security, and a small number of people have access,” he said. “But I can just tell you I’m not aware of anything that would be very likely to be seen as a UFO.
“But,” he added, “I would also tell you I wasn’t aware of all programs. So it’s certainly possible there was something that was special access and there wasn’t a need to know. And there are always tradeoffs in that. Unfortunately, I don’t have any knowledge to convey about this one.”
Here’s a superb, video summary and analysis of the Wilson/Davis notes by researcher, Richard Dolan, who appropriately dubbed them the “UFO Leak of the Century.” Dolan also wrote, what is hands down, the most thorough analysis of the notes that’s publicly available as I write this. He also wrote this excellent follow-up, which is well worth your time.
Dolan received this interesting comment about the documents from Hal Puthoff, PhD., on June 12th, 2019. Dr. Puthoff, Founder/President of EarthTech Int’l, Inc. and Director of the Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin, was Dr. Davis’ boss until late last year.
With regard to authenticity, we have no comment on the documents recently being circulated. As some of us still retain USG security clearances and remain bound by the secrecy oaths we have taken, we believe it is in the best interest of the USG and ourselves not to comment on any documents that purport to describe classified USG programs or information.
However, during the Q&A portion of a lecture he gave on February 8th of this year in West Virginia, Dr. Puthoff seemed to confirm Dr. Davis did indeed interview Wilson.
Q: Richard Dolan calls the Wilson Documents…the Wilson document leak, the leak of the century. Can I get a comment on the Wilson Documents?
HP: This is a question about the Wilson Documents that apparently got leaked on the internet. Admiral Wilson, who was one of the Joint Chiefs of Staff interviewed by my senior scientist colleague, Eric Davis. Since it discusses potentially, ongoing programs, I have no comment.
Like I said, that seems like a confirmation the meeting took place. Huge news! But Dr. Puthoff later explained to Dolan that, due to bad audio in the room, he was repeating all the questions and he did not intend to confirm anything. You be the judge. I think one of three things happened:
1) He may have slipped up and confirmed the documents
2) He knew what he was doing and purposely confirmed the document but denied it when Dolan asked
3) He was just repeating the question
I’ll take Dr. Puthoff at his word as he’s my second favorite scientists in the world. But either way, it definitely got the attention of a lot of folks, including me.
If you’re looking to learn everything you can about this story, besides Dolan’s work, make sure you check out this amazing compilation of related links (articles, audio and video) compiled by Giuliano. His site also includes the same for information/media related to the AATIP/AAWSAP story. The guy is phenomenal at what he does and you will get lost for days as you dive deep into these stories. It’s a must visit and you will learn something new. Plus. if there was a Lady Byng trophy of UFOlogy, he’d win it every year. He’s a true gentleman.
In August of this year, Dolan interviewed former CIA officer and scientist, Kit Green, M.D., Ph.D, currently an Assistant Dean of the Wayne State School of Medicine, about the notes and a second leak from the Dr. Mitchell collection that deals with the alleged, Alien Autopsy film. You can read about the AA controversy in Dolan’s interview. Green used to run the weird desk at the CIA where he was the point man for anything that came through the door dealing with UFOs and parapsychological topics. He currently works with patients who were seriously injured during anomalous events that many of them believe were caused by UAP/UFOs. Green’s comment to Dolan about Wilson/Davis:
“On the record, I have agreed on the record that I have no authority to confirm that it is a legitimate memo because in fact, the fact that I’ve seen it, the fact that I think one thing doesn’t give me the authority to declare its provenance as legitimate. I can’t do that so I won’t say that.”
Green also gave an off the record comment after which Dolan said he still believes the documents are legit. So make of that what you will. I interviewed Kit Green for two hours at the end of 2019 for a future blog. Earlier this week, when I contacted him to belatedly follow up on that interview and ask him for on and off the record comments about the Wilson/Davis documents, he told me he will be “giving no more public or background interviews on any of these or related subjects ever again, to internet radio, or for Blogs.” So unless I get a job with the New York Times, Washington Post, etc…, I’ll have to publish what I already have from him.
Eric W. Davis
On the January 28, 2018 episode of Coast to Coast AM with George Knapp, Dr. Davis described a UFO sighting he had in Tuscon, Arizona in May of 1989, while doing his PhD dissertation on the Voyager missions to Jupiter. Davis, his wife and other students were at a swimming party in the back of his dissertation supervisor’s house when he and his wife saw a black, Boomerang-shaped object in broad daylight. In July of 1996, he went on to work for Robert Bigelow’s National Institute of Discovery Science (NIDS), which investigated and researched UFOs and all kinds of anomalous science. And as Dr. Davis says in the interview, “the rest is history.”
He went on to work at the infamous Skinwalker Ranch and had numerous, anomalous/paranormal experiences while there. In a message to me earlier this year, the astrophysicist who’s never at a loss for words, told me, “I was there from Sept. 1996 until Aug. 2001 when Bob Bigelow terminated all ranch field trips for a lack of activity there or elsewhere in the Uinta Basin. My last day at NIDS was April 30, 2002 because my job got eliminated to cut the NIDS payroll.”
In May 2018, Davis was the guest on Open Minds UFO Radio, with host, Alejandro Rojas. Eventually, the conversation turned to UFO crashes and while Rojas said he was pretty skeptical about the subject, Davis jumped right in and said there have been crashes all over the world. Since these details are so important, I’m going to transcribe everything that Dr. Davis said.
Dr. Eric Davis: There have been crashes. The superpowers on the Earth have had their share of crashes and they have recovered the vehicles from their crashes. That’s why Jacques Vallee and I agree that even though these things behave like a conscious, spiritual, psychic entity, they do have an advanced technology, they have hardware. And there’s a craft. And there’s occupants or UFOnauts…that Vallee calls them. So there’s UFOnauts running these craft, whatever they may be.
They have that technology. We do, too. And it’s a very super-sensitive topic because it’s something that your listeners are probably going to be shocked at. Probably a minute fraction, like less than one, one thousandth (1/1000) or one one-hundred thousandth (1/100,000) of the people with the need to know access, need to know authorization, and security clearances to be involved with that type of work, are the only ones that know. The vast majority of the rest of government really doesn’t know. And that’s why one hand, like the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing…virtually because of the stove-piping that goes on in compartmentalized programs. You just can’t knock on doors and say, “Hey! Here’s who I am. I’ve got clearances but not the right ones. I don’t have a need to know but I wanna know, so can you tell me? And you’re going to be lied to, because that’s the rule.”
You don’t want to tell the enemy anything when this guy who’s knocking on your door asking you about UFO crashes, could be an asset for the Soviet Union or the Russian Federation, or the Chinese PLA, or the nincompoops over in Iran and North Korea and so forth. So, even if it’s an American, you still don’t wanna answer that question because you don’t know who they are. And you’re not supposed to be revealing that information.
So, it takes a lot of hard tracking and digging after networking and it can take years and years and years. And then you develop the security clearances and then the authorization for need to know that appropriately allow you access to that information. Then you find out, “Hey, yeah. It’s there, it’s true.” On the other hand, sometimes the information does come out on its own but it doesn’t come out in the way that UFOlogy likes to fantasize about it. It comes out only to specific people who have specific talents and skills, who have security clearances. They may not have the need to know, but they could have the need to know if they were presented with that requirement or if they were presented by a crash retrieval program and saying, “Hey, I want to bring in gentlemen X, Y, Z. He’s got the security clearances, but he doesn’t have the need to know and I want to give him the need to know because I need his talent to help us solve this problem with the crash retrieval reverse, engineering studies. So then they will do that. That’s the official way of doing it. That’s how you officially get brought in.
(The following paragraph may be describing similar situations to what happened between Dr. Davis and Admiral Wilson in 2002. But was the Admiral’s car a SCIF? Can a car be made into a SCIF? Or did that conversation take place somewhere else? Are the Wilson/Davis documents littered with little inaccuracies here and there to throw folks off the trail and to provide cover later on if the document ever leaked? Or is everything within them 100% accurate? Maybe the conversation between Dr. Davis and Wilson was more casual than what Davis describes below and a SCIF wasn’t needed? ~Joe)
The other unofficial way is…you gain, you build a level of trust among certain individuals, and people within the network who, after a few years of knowing them, you work with them, they know who you are, they know what you’re capable of, they know your competencies. And they want to bring the topic up on an informal basis with you. Sometimes not even on an informal basis, they may wanna bring the topic up outside the realm of the security apparatus but, within a SCIF. In other words, there’s going to be no passing of security clearances to establish that…I am going to be allowed to be read in on the crash approval program but they’ll bring me into a SCIF and want to talk informally in the SCIF about it. And say, “Well, this is what we can tell you but there’s things that we can’t tell you. And we can tell you those things if you can get the next level security and authorization to get the need to know and then we can do business with you.” But before we get to that point, here’s what we can tell you without having to cross that red line of the need to know and the proper clearances.
So you work this stuff out over a number of years, you build networks, and you find the right people. And you don’t do it by knocking on doors, you do it just through the happenstance of having a contract with somebody or a subcontract. And you’re interfacing with them. And then, lo and behold, you find out they’re the vice president or the president of one of the legacy aerospace corporations and they happen to be a PhD of a STEM discipline all on their own accord. And it just so happens that they were a guy that worked on the crash retrieval program. Oh, lo and behold! And then they find out that you’re working the UFO subject for a DoD program. And they’ll say, “Oh, that’s wonderful! You’re officially a government contractor or subcontractor. And you’re working with another aerospace company. Okay, well you’re working on UFOs? Well guess what? We did it too! And we don’t do it now but we did it in the past and here’s what we can tell you, off the record, and here’s what we can’t. And you’ll have to go another step before we can tell you what it is on the record. But it has to be through that, again, you have to have the right clearances, you have to have the authorization for the need to know and then you can get the full story.”
It’s a very complex process. The way Steve Greer went about it for his Disclosure program…that was called the shotgun approach. The shotgun approach means he was putting himself out there during the 1990s, talking about crash retrievals. I won’t go through his whole story I’m sure you’ve already covered or other people covered it. But one thing led to another and he was like a bar magnet, tracking all these retirees from various parts of the government, U.S. military, who had some knowledge about the UFO subject and the crash retrieval subject in particular. And a good majority of them were crackpots, they were phonies. But there was a small number of them that were the real deal. And so he successfully picked up a very small number of them, and got some information. Now as to the veracity and quality of that information? That’s another story. But he did get some interesting information.
Alejandro Rojas Could you share with us who you think might have been the real deal, out of his witnesses?
Dr. Eric Davis No, what I mean is the information was verifiable. In other words, once people looked into it, they said, yeah, this is realistic. Whereas a good chunk of his disclosure witnesses…ehh…you know, you had middle of the road guys, they had some information, but it was too purple, it was just anecdotal. And then you had the guys that were real liars. He’s got a chunk of liars out there that…I don’t know how much effort he spent on vetting any of those people and I’m not gonna name names as to who they are. And it’s not important because the fact that they had no real information means it’s noise. We’re dealing with signal, we’re interested in signal in science folks, not the noise. (laughs) Check the noise.
So, he did have a small signal of people that had verifiable information. And unfortunately, it’s the shotgun approach. They came forward, they gave him information that was freely given to him. But it was after the fact, it was nothing that could be acted on. The people that gave him information, they weren’t directly involved with crash retrieval at all. They actually were either peripheral, or they heard it from somebody reliable. So the veridical information was high quality, but they were not firsthand people. You know what I mean? People with first hand knowledge or first hand exposure to this whole subject. So he got pretty close. But that’s the shotgun approach. That’s where you’re gonna shoot the shotgun, your pellets are gonna hit all over the wall, and there’s gonna be a small part of the wall where the pellets hit the right targets. And all the rest of the pellets, pretty much only just a few pellets hit the right target. And all the rest of the pellets just randomly hit a bunch of bad targets.
Alejandro Rojas And the hard part is that the target’s invisible. We don’t know.
Dr. Eric Davis So here’s the thing that you should know…is that the crash retrieval program is [a] very small program. It is not a massive, huge government infrastructures. It’s a it’s a very poorly-funded program and it hasn’t actually, probably hasn’t had any money for a while. I do know that the program was terminated in 1989 for lack of progress in reverse engineering, anything that they had, any of the hardware that they had. And they’ll resurrect it every, maybe so often, so many years go by and they’ll try it again. And they just don’t succeed because compartmentalization is a killer. Scientists cannot communicate with other scientists to get help.
It’s like, I’m doing this first semester differential calculus, homework problem, I’m doing the rocket equation and I am stuck on the boundary conditions so I can come up with the right solution that gives me the right answer to the propellant mass flow rate. And I’m having a hard time. So what do I gotta do? I’m missing something, I just don’t know what I’m supposed to do with this to be able to solve this differential equation. So I gotta call my buddy who’s in my class. He’s a math whiz. And he’s the one that gets straight A’s. So I’m going to call him on the phone and say, “Help me with this, this is what I got done and this is what I’m stuck on.” And he’ll explain it to me. Well, if you’re in the crash retrieval program, or any black program for that matter, and you come up with a technical roadblock, you can’t call your best buddy or any expert that you don’t know and just call them cold and say, “Hey, this is who I am, this is what I’m doing, this is what I’m working on. I’m stuck. What do you suggest I do to get past this roadblock?” (laughs) You can’t do that.
Alejandro Rojas Nick Pope talks about the same problem when they did the Condign report. They genuinely had some intelligence people who wanted to look into the issue. But they had no access, they couldn’t talk to anybody who had…they weren’t cleared for all of these things they wanted to write about so they just had to speculate.
Dr. Eric Davis Yeah. And this isn’t just unique to the crash retrieval program. This type of problem is unique to all the black programs that the DoD has. DHS has them. The military service branches has them. The Department of Energy has their own version. The purpose of a black program with a special access program security wrap is you gotta limit the information and exposure to the information, to as few people as possible in order to produce the maximum security protection against espionage by the enemy. And so that limits who you can work with that, that also is cleared to know. That limits the amount of experts that you can have working with you. And gosh, if your small group of experts are stumped, you’re screwed, because you basically can’t call your buddies or somebody you know, or somebody you know of, who’s an expert better than you or a bigger expert on the subject, at a university, either near you or at a university across the country. You can’t call those guys, you can’t even read them in because you’re not supposed to acknowledge some of these black…most of these black programs are not supposed to be acknowledged.
So, for that basis, you don’t legitimately exist so you can’t tip off the university expert that there’s a program, by calling him and saying I’m stuck on something, you just can’t do it. If it’s really dire and it’s a problem that really, the expertise is desperately needed outside of the cleared group, then the program manager and the security officer will write a justification to go reach out to the university expert and read him in on the program and they’ll have to be given security clearances and sign the NDA and fill out the SF-86 and all those forms and get the DD 254 filled out. And then they’ll be told, you die with this information. You can never talk about it until after you die. (laughs) Till after you’re dead.
So that’s how that works. And it happens in cruise missile programs, it happens mostly in programs involving covert, clandestine operations and their logistics. It happens with nuclear weapons development and deployment. It happens with intelligence operations and it happens with technology development. And the interesting thing is that today, there’s a big move away from Special Access Programs. They’re extremely costly to maintain. Extremely costly. Let me tell you this: The cost to maintain information, personnel and physical security for special access program can be tens of times larger than the cost of the program itself. So let’s say the program is building the B-21 bomber, right? Let’s just assume, let’s say for the sake of argument, that the bomber project is $50 billion total. That’s probably not even reasonable. The security for that is going to be could be as much as ten times higher. I mean, it could be. Stretched out over a number of years, of course, not all at once. So it could be as much as ten times higher because you’ve gotta maintain all kinds of security. Now that’s a hypothetical.
“…the crash retrieval program, it’s still there. And we would have gotten into the crash retrieval program using the legal authorizations that would open the door [for] us. And we would have gotten access to it and that would have exponentially increased our knowledge base and understanding since we don’t have a Tic Tac in possession right now. We’re not in possession of one.”
Once again, he went on to explain that the crash retrieval program has been in hibernation and defunded since 1989 due to decades of failure in trying to reverse engineer the technology. However, he thinks the effort will probably be, “resurrected whenever our current physics and engineering and material sciences catches up to a level that our decision makers think they would be confident in being able to reopen that can of worms again, to investigate, to do research on reverse engineering.”
Knapp pushed for more.
George Knapp: “Well that makes it sound like there’s something to analyze or to reverse engineer?”
Dr. Eric Davis: Yeah, they got…I’d say, you know, if you’re going to throw your bets on Roswell, your bet’s really good. Del Rio, Texas, that was the 1950s case, that’s another one. And the other ones I won’t bring up because those are still classified.
George Knapp: Oh.
Dr. Eric Davis: And they have not been investigated to my knowledge. I’m sorry, they have not been revealed or published, to my knowledge. So, without knowing that that’s the case, I won’t talk about it any further. But we have crash retrievals and they’ve been analyzed and unfortunately, our laboratory diagnostic technologies and our material sciences and the understanding of physics that we had, were not advanced enough to be able to make heads or tails of what it is, what they had their hands on. The customer, being a certain government agency, decided to just pull the plug on funding so that was the end of it.
George Knapp: Well, I think I know what tomorrow’s headline is…
Dr. Eric Davis. (Laughs) Yeah.
A month later, Dr. Davis was on “UFOs Classified with Erica Lukes” and once again he discussed crash retrievals of UFOs. This time, Roswell was the focus.
Dr. Eric Davis: Roswell was a real event. It happened. And it was a stupid, phony cover-up that General Ramey was ordered by Washington to institute in order to shut the story down as quick as possible because of what they had recovered. It was pretty spectacular. They just didn’t want it getting out to the Soviets and anybody else that they had recovered that craft and the bodies. So yeah, we’ve got a crash retrieval and Roswell was there. And I disagree with John Alexander when he says that he couldn’t find any evidence of it. But Phil Corso made clear that there was evidence. I’ve done background investigation on Phil Corso that went beyond what John was capable of doing and I verified Corso’s story and verified every word he said about Roswell. So, it happened.
Erica Lukes (EL): And I just gotta clarify because people hear Corso and their hackles come up. I think that probably his book was embellished by Bill Birnes but correct me if I’m wrong.
Dr. Eric Davis: Yeah. If you read the hand-written manuscript that Phil wrote of his autobiography, you’ll find the very small section in the book where he talks about the Roswell crash. How when he was a retired civilian, his good buddy, Lt. General Arthur Trudeau, had hired him at the Army research agency. This has been long time since I read this story so I might get a bit of the details wrong. His job as a civilian was to handle the crash retrieval materials and assign them out to the various defense contractors for analysis and reverse engineering studies. And so that proved out to be true. And so, it’s there. And there were several other crash retrievals that have happened after that.
Davis went on to describe the so-called “Collins Elite,” as unorganized, small cliques and individual fundamentalist, evangelical Christians within the government and DoD, who think UFOs and their occupants are satanic and their technology is demonic. Whenever these folks are in the chain of command, they will do everything within their power to expose, obstruct, block and shut down any program related to UFOs. They will do whatever it takes to keep these programs from being implemented, from being funded or from getting new funding. Davis believes it’s pathetic and based on fear, incompetence and careerism. He added, “That is what goes on inside the military intelligence community where the topic of UFOs comes up. And that’s why the crash retrieval program was buried as black and deep as it could be buried. To keep it protected from those morons.” (I love that bluntness. That’s why HE is my favorite scientist of all time! ~Joe)
In a November 5th, 2019 article, Bill Cox was trying his best to solve the mystery again after an anonymous Reddit researcher pointed the finger at Noel Longeumare as the man who kept Admiral Wilson from entering the vault of an unnamed defense contractor and crash retrieval heaven. Longeumare quickly dashed the hopes of an unrelenting Cox.
“While Acting USD (AT&L), the SAPOC reviewed a number of classified programs when I was present. I do not recall UFOs ever coming up, nor any issues regarding need-to-know,” Longuemare asserted in an email. Nor does he remember an audience with Admiral Wilson.
In a follow-up conversation, Longeumare said none of the claims of people seeing UFOs were credible and he felt the late debunker, Phil Klass, was doing “very credible work.” Was he referring to the time Klass allegedly tried to crash the party at the April 1996 CSETI event Dr. Greer was hosting to educate various representatives of Congressional offices on UFOs?
And since Roswell was mentioned in this part, I’d be derelict in my duty if I didn’t include this. Is it related to the NYT effort? I don’t know.
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