Transcript – Active-Duty Navy Commander Comes Forward & Witnesses Speak Out On 2019 UFO Swarms: We’ve Never Seen Anything Like This. They Just Seemed To Appear

5 Mar , 2023  

“Then it moves to the starboard side, right across, and they scurry across the ship. And they’re kind of, you know, going through wherever they need to go to get to the other side. And they maintain eyes on it, because they’re just shocked at what they’re seeing. And then, probably the most dramatic part of the of the event was…once it moved to the starboard side of the ship, it just shot straight up into the air. And the word that the sailor that we spoke with used was, ‘It just zoomed, it zoomed, it zoomed straight up in the air.”

~John “Guts” Gutierrez


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Episode 2 of, “Weaponized,” with Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp.


From the YouTube summary:

John “Guts” Gutierrez is an active duty Navy Commander having served for 17 years, initially as a helicopter pilot deployed all over the world, and credentialed as an Aviation Safety Officer. He’s a graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis and has a personal passion for the UAP mystery. In this episode of WEAPONIZED, Jeremy & George talk with John about his life and personal perspective on the current, global UAP mystery. They also talk in-depth about the now famous UFO swarm event series that occurred off the coast of California in 2019. This is a case now widely known due to Jeremy’s & George’s reporting on the events. This dramatic UFO event series included 10 Navy warships that were brazenly swarmed by over 100 Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs). For the first time ever – we get to hear what really happened – directly from two military eyewitnesses tasked with responding to the incursions within United States restricted airspace.

• • •

WEAPONIZED would like to make clear that John is not speaking in any official capacity. He is not representing the U.S. Navy, the DoD or U.S. Government. All views and opinions expressed throughout the podcast by John [and by the anonymous service members] are strictly his/their own – and in no way represent the official position of the U.S. Navy, DoD or U.S. Government.

~ ~ ~

Jeremy Corbell (JC): “This is my good friend, John, who you know. We’ve known each other a long time, John.”

John Gutierrez (Guts): “We have, we have.”

JC: “I’m really excited that we’re able to talk.”

Guts: “Yeah, man.”

JC: “You know, officially, like, on camera, you know, on audio, for people to kind of learn about you, our friendship, that kind of thing. So, can you tell me, John, a little bit about yourself.”

Guts: “So, I’m an active-duty, Navy Commander. I’ve been in for about 17 years. Originally, as a helo pilot, is my background. So I definitely have experience in the aviation community. But, you know, I’ve been deployed all over the world, obviously got a chance to meet you along the way. And just just happy to be here.”

George Knapp (GK): “Can you give us a sense of how you got interested in the UFO topic, and how that led to a friendship with Jeremy?”

Guts: “Sure, absolutely. You know, lifelong interest, starting as a kid. Wanted to be an astronaut, you know, I guess, like every other kid, but as I got older, that was kind of like, a real goal. And so, that’s eventually how I ended up at the Naval Academy. We can get into that a little bit later, if we want. But lifelong interest, kind of starting with the astronaut aspirations. Turns out, it’s really hard to be an astronaut, by the way (GK laughs). Definitely, they take the cream of the crop for that group. But, you know, kind of, throughout my life, there were always these kind of figures growing up, adults in my life, that, you know, they took the topic seriously. Really, any topic, you know? My mom’s from Central America, and we’d go visit, you know, every summer, growing up. There’s a lot to be said for sitting around a table as a kid, with a bunch of adults around you, having serious discussions about maybe some, you know, call it paranormal topics. And as a kid that made a big impression on me, you know? To hear, you know, my aunt bringing up a story of, you know, ‘Hey, so and so saw something the other night that looked really weird.’ And instead of dismissing it, you know, outright or people snickering or laughing, it’s like, ‘Oh, really?’ And, you know, just having having serious discussions about it. Same thing, you know, my dad was one of the first ones that ever mentioned, you know, Area 51, and the possibility of what’s out in the desert, you know? But again, not, in a joking way, just kind of taking it seriously, you know?

“And then, of course, there were some, you know…I’m a child of the nineties so, I’m definitely…there was some big pop culture influences on me. X-Files was a big one. And even that, you know, we’d have a family friend come over, a former military guy, a former Marine, and we’d watch an episode of X-Files. And at the end of it, you know, he goes, ‘You know, there’s little bit of kernel of truth in that episode.’ And he’d go into a whole thing about the kernel of truth behind that particular episode. And then, of course, for me, you know, listening to Coast to Coast, you know, which I’m sure you’re familiar with. But, growing up, my dad owned and operated a family restaurant in my hometown. If I wasn’t playing football, or getting in trouble with my friends, I was working, you know, I was working at the restaurant. And, you know, Friday, Saturday nights, we’d be up late, trying to shut things down and go home. And by the time we’d get out of the restaurant, on Friday and Saturday nights, you know, it’s eleven, twelve o’clock at night. And my dad would drive me home, you know, a twenty, thirty-minute drive to the house or whatever, and he’d flip on the radio. And the only think to listen to that’s worth listening to at that hour is a show like Coast. And so, you know, kind of those, again, people trying to have, you know, serious discussions about topics that maybe would be considered unorthodox, or, you know, kind of on the fringes. And then, eventually, I never suspected that what would eventually be my professional career would come crashing so closely with my personal passions and interests, you know? But they definitely have, you know, in a big way, so.”

JC: “So kind of listening to George on Coast to Coast was really, as a kid, the way that you, like me, kind of got this on your radar through family and just, you know, in the zeitgeist, just listening to the radio.

Guts: “Yeah. absolutely. And again, just listening to serious people have serious discussions about it. When you’re a kid, you kind of look to those around you to see, well what’s their reaction like, are they taking it seriously, are they laughing, are they not? Luckily for me, the way I was raised, my parents were always very open minded and kind of accepted of what people brought to us. Obviously, with a discerning eye, always. Even though it’s been a personal passion/interest, I’d like to think that I’m somebody who’s taken it seriously and tried to sort the wheat from chaff, as they say. It’s hard. It’s hard to kind of shift through all the noise and all the scatter that’s out there. But boy, I think when you can do that and do it successfully, I think it goes a long way.”

GK: “So as you pursue your naval career, you rise through the ranks. And it’s obviously not on your front burner, thinking about UFOs.”

Guts: “No, no.”

GK: “Maybe in the back of your mind. At what point do you cross paths with Jeremy and how do you begin a conversation with him?”

Guts: “Let me say, first, too: I’m not here on behalf of the Navy, or I’m not here representing the Navy in any way. It happens to be my career and my profession, which I’m very thankful for and I’m proud of my service, and I wouldn’t change a single thing. You know, the Navy’s been good to me and my family, and I’m married with three young kids and everything we have I owe to the Navy. But in that sense, I’m not here with my Navy hat on, it just happens to be my job. So, please don’t take anything that I’m saying…it’s just my opinion.”

GK: “Yeah, absolutely because it’s a good point.”

Guts: “Yeah, no, it’s just my opinion and I think it’s important, when it’s appropriate, to hear from folks that may have either had experiences or just kind of help the public understand, kind of the military perspective. Because it’s hard. There’s a lot of jargon, there’s a lot of nuance, there’s a lot of the military culture. Unfortunately, a lot of what people know, is just what they see in the movies and on TV. And that’s part of it. But the reality is a little bit different.

“But with Jeremy, we met back in 2015, I think it was. Actually, I think it was a little before the summer of 2014, let’s say. I was listening to Coast, and I had heard that an individual by the name of Bob Lazar was going to be coming out for the first time in a long time, to a certain conference out in Arizona.



Guts: “Like I said, it’s the summer of 2014, I think the conference was in February of 2015. So that kind of piqued my interest, obviously, right? I listened to that show and I’d always known kind of who Bob was, and was familiar with his story.

Watch for Free: Bob Lazar: Area 51 & Flying Saucers


Guts: “But I had a friend of mine, who will go unnamed. But another good buddy of mine, active-duty guy. A submariner. But this is a guy that I’ve known for over twenty years now, someone that I trust my life with. And I knew that he was a big Bob Lazar fan, let’s call him. And by fan, I mean, you know, again, someone who was interested in the story, but even more so, you know, really tried to follow the story and try to, you know, try to follow the details to make heads or tails of…is it’s true what he’s really saying, you know?

“So I knew that my buddy was very interested in the Bob Lazar story. I knew that he was going to be on deployment at the time that Bob had decided to come out, to agree to do the conference. So I said, well, what the hell, I’ve had a lifelong interest in this stuff. I’ve never been to a conference myself, up until that point. And at the time, I was stationed in San Diego, and I go, ‘Well, Arizona’s not too far.’ So, pack up the kids and the wife and, ‘We’re going in the desert to hear people talk about UFOs and to listen to Bob.’ So we get there, and I think I came across you (Corbell) at…you had a booth set up or whatever. And at the time, I think you had a little 10-12 minute clip of Bob that people…again, no one had really heard from him in that way that you had put him out, up until that point. And I think I came up to you and said, ‘Hey man, how much for a signed, Bob Lazar poster?’ Because I really wanted it for my buddy. That’s really what it was. The whole impetus for that was just, I thought it’d be really cool as a homecoming gift for him. You know, being out on deployment, you know, submarine duty is tough. So I kind of wanted something nice for him to come home to and and be able to provide him, ‘Hey, check out what I got for you!’ And no, it wasn’t even for me. So I think that was kind of the start.”

JC: “Yeah, yeah, it’s funny man. You came up and I didn’t know what to do because I had only printed these posters because people were gonna kill me if I didn’t have something from the little short film, interview thing. And so, finally, I think we met up later that night, and you were like, ‘This is for my buddy and he’s gonna be so stoked.’ Who now, I know, and I’m friends with as well. But that was just kind of cool, that was the first way that we met. It’s kind of funny, like, you know, you’re (Knapp) reporting and with Bob, brings all these people together. We struck up a friendship, and he (Guts) came out to my place out in Pioneertown and it just kind of started from there.”

Guts: “Absolutely, I think at the time, we exchanged emails. And I remember, it’s funny, you were very gracious.”

JC: “Okay, good.”

Guts: “You were very gracious and you weren’t putting on any airs or anything, and real easy to talk to and get along with. And you told me, ‘Yeah, let’s keep in touch.’ I [was thinking], this guy’s…whatever, he’s pulling my leg.”

GK: “I think it’s important…we’re gonna delve into some really cool areas, sensitive materials and incidents. But I think it’s important to say…”

Guts: “Nothing too sensitive (smiles).”

GK: “Yeah, of course. Within limits. We’ll push it as hard as we can (JC and Guts laugh). Whatever we can get away with. It’s important, I think, as people are watching or listening at home, and are assuming, ‘Well, if he’s friends with Jeremy, maybe this is the guy that’s leaking stuff, images and things like that?'”

Guts: “Oh no, no. No, no, no, no.”

GK: “You should make that clear about the nature of your relationship.”

Guts: “Sure. Let me make it abundantly clear: No, I am not Jeremy’s source on anything that he’s put out. I take my job seriously, I’m able to keep my personal passions and, like I said, my professional obligations and duties, keep those two worlds separate. You have to…especially with this job and the world of security clearances and things like that. You have to be able to do that. As an aviator, they train us to compartmentalized a lot of stuff to be able to go fly. So, maybe for someone like me, or a fellow aviator, it’s a little more inherent to be able to do that, because they train you to do that. So kind of keeping those worlds separate is paramount. As close as we are, I would never violate the sanctity of any…”

GK: “And you’re cognizant of that, too, Jeremy. He’s your friend. You don’t want to put him in a position where he gets in trouble.”

JC: “I would never do that. And to kind of push that…so people really understand: For me, with Guts, is, he’s a rational-minded person that has  experience as an aviator, long military career, an active, Navy commander. All of this is a perspective that is real important to some of the stuff that you and I are looking at. So, what I’ll do, over the years, is I’d be like, ‘Hey man, I got this witness, they’re coming at me with this story or something. Can I verify…did they go to the Annapolis Naval Academy with you?’ Just in general. Like, is this a real person? What does this word mean? What should I be thinking about? Just basic stuff is how I come to – well I call him Guts, which is his call sign – John, right? The basic thing that I’ll do is utilize his basic expertise to help me sort what I’m looking at. Now, it’s gotten much deeper over the years and he’s seen some of the stuff that we’ve obtained & released to the public. I mean, I’ve never, ever…first of all, I’ll just put it right out there: It’s not a source, and you know that, but, I mean, just publicly, something has to be vetted over and over and over. I have to receive something three or four times to feel that it is valid, and then to go in and look at it. You’ve never asked me, and I’ve never talked to you about sources, which I think is important to kind of…”

Guts: “Yeah, no…absolutely. To the contrary of your (Knapp) point of, you know, feeding stuff to Jeremy. Absolutely not. I’ve never done anything like that. On the contrary, I’ve been…I don’t know what the right word is…genuinely shocked, surprised, impressed, however you want to put it, of the sources that you do have & maintain. I have no idea who they are. Kind of like you would never put me in that position, I would never put you in that position, either. I don’t wanna know. But, again, as someone who takes it seriously, as someone who has a passion for…certainly the world of aviation safety, that’s kind of the angle that I’m coming at it from. I certainly have an interest [in] the stuff that you put out.”

JC: “First of all, the Pentagon has confirmed that what we released was actual Navy film footage. I mean, is it okay to ask you: Were you aware of this material after seeing George and I release it?”

Guts: “There were a couple of things that you guys had put out that I had been previously aware of. Yeah, absolutely. So, when I saw it again, in the form that you put it out, it was like, ‘Whoa, okay.'”

GK: “You’re glad it comes out.”

Guts: “Yeah, it adds a certain level of credibility or validity to the products that you guys put out. It’s real.”

GK: “Five years, we’ve seen such a dramatic change in how the topic is regarded by mainstream media, Congress is looking at it, the public is energized. I mean, it’s an amazing about face and transformation of events I never thought I would see. But, I’m curious: In private conversations, you’ve told us, the Navy is global, it’s a big place, but it’s also a small place. Can you give us a sense of, during these five years of tumultuous change and so much public attention on the UFO issue and questions, is it discussed among your colleagues? Is it something that you talk about on a regular basis?”

Guts: “Well, it is and it isn’t. It kind just depends on who you talk to. All my buddies, sure, I’m the Fox Mulder of the squadron. Oh, UFO stuff? Talk to Guts. It is and it isn’t. Certainly, 2017 was a big year. When someone like Commander Fravor comes out and shares his story, that’s a big deal. It’s a really big deal. Someone like Chad Underwood, that you’ve talked to. When they come out and provide their story, it’s a big deal. Ryan Graves and all the rest.”


JC: “For people who don’t about this stuff, right? So, you’re talking about Commander David Fravor and Commander Chad Underwood. Commander David Fravor was the guy that chased a UFO for the United States military, famously called the Tic Tac UFO incident. Which is now famous because the NYT and everything…the interviews George and I did with Dave Fravor, and also with Commander Underwood. He’s the guy that filmed the Tic Tac UFO. So we have a witness report from a pilot who was the head of the Black Aces, then you got somebody who he sends out to film this UFO, and films it.”

Part 1 – Fravor interviewed by Knapp and Corbell


Part 2 – Fravor interviewed by Knapp and Corbell


Chad Underwood, the man who filmed the Tic Tac UFO, interviewed by Corbell


JC: “And it’s FLIR footage that’s put out to the world. So, for people who don’t know, that’s what we’re talking about. When I first I told you I was talking with a Navy commander who chased a UFO, what was your reaction?”

Guts: “Oh, it’s bullshit, it’s total bullshit. I didn’t believe you, man. And again, that kind of goes back to the whole sorting wheat from the…you gotta have a good bs meter. I don’t have to tell you that. You really gotta have a good bs meter with all this stuff. When you first mentioned that you had somebody of the status of Commander Fravor, I didn’t believe it. That’s too good to be true. It’s a perfect witness, when you think about it.”

JC: “Why?”

Guts: “Well, and like I’ve told you before, privately, I wish people, I wish the general public more inherently understood the quality of the caliber of witness, the quality of witness that a guy like Commander Fravor is. Why? Number one, he’s an aviator, so I gotta, you know, I’m biased towards that. Listen, he’s a jet jock. He’s as close to the real-life Maverick, Tom Cruise, that you’re gonna get in real life. He’s the CO (Commanding Officer) of his own jet squadron, The Black Aces, that deploys around the world. Which again, in our world, there’s no one above that, obviously. He’s a Naval Academy graduate. He’s a Top Gun graduate. I believe he was an instructor but don’t quote me on that. But again, this is somebody that, when they speak, people should listen and take what they’re saying seriously.

“And so, do people talk about it? Yeah, but it’s not prolific. Even today, you’ll come across active-duty folks, ‘Have you ever heard of Commander Fravor?’ And they’ll go, ‘Who’s that?’ I go, ‘How the hell do you not know about that?’ So look, we do talk…at least my perspective is it’s not a dirty little secret or anything like that. If people wanna talk about it, they talk about it. Which is great, because another reason why I would agree to come on and do something like this…there’s stigma with this stuff. There’s been a stigma for a long time and I think we’re turning a corner…it feels like it. But there’s still a lot of work to be done.”

JC: “How does that show up in your, kind of, line of work. How does the stigma to unidentified flying objects and pilots having to deal with that? Near misses, should we engage or should we not? How does stigma show up in your field?”

Guts: “Well the way it comes up is, it’s kind of, those who have had an experience and those who haven’t, right? For the guys that have run into this stuff on a daily basis, for them it’s real.”

JC: “And they have?”

Guts: “And they have. That’s a fact.”

JC: “Pilots are running into unidentified flying objects on a daily basis. They’re seeing them, picking them up on radar?”

Guts: “That’s a fact, okay? For them, it’s real, and stigma be damned. Because you can’t tell a guy, something that just flew by your cockpit at fifty feet away from you…you can’t deny that. The way the stigma shows up is for those who haven’t [had these experiences], who aren’t interested in this stuff and who don’t understand the aviation safety aspects associated with UAP. And so, that’s kind of why I classify it that way. Those who have had the experiences and those who haven’t. And for those who haven’t, it’s just hard for them to wrap their mind around it. It’s still a big mystery. We don’t know what this stuff is.”

GK: “2017, Jeremy and I were able to break the story of the Tic Tac, twice, on Coast to Coast, months before it came out in the New York Times. And because of how Jeremy treated Fravor with respect, that word gets around. It helps cultivate other sources and it’s served both of us really well. When that story comes out, though, it leads to changes in the Navy. I mean. the Navy comes out and says, ‘We wanna make it easier for our aviators and other service members to go ahead and report this stuff when it happens, so that there’s less stigma attached, it’s not gonna hurt your career.’ The Navy has lead the charge. I wanna know if this is a source of pride for you, when you compare it to, say, the Air Force. Which, I’ll just say it, they’re flat out dragging their butts on this stuff.”


GN: “They’ve been uncooperative with Congress, with the UAP Task Force. You know that they’re sitting on a big pile of information that they’re not sharing, and they’ll have to be dragged kicking and screaming. The Navy, at least, ostensibly, is much more cooperative. Are you proud of that, the Navy doing that?”

Guts: “Without question. Obviously, yeah, I’m biased towards the naval service. But, I am proud. I’m proud of the way that we have tried to tackle this topic, because there’s a real concern  out there. We got guys in the air, coming across things that we don’t know what they are, and the risk for a near, mid-air collision, or God forbid, an actual, mid-air collision, is there. It’s really there. And the fact that the Navy has tried to implement, maybe, easier reporting procedures or guidelines to make it okay for pilots not to be afraid to say, ‘Hey, you know, I saw this thing, I don’t know what it is, but I almost hit it.'”


JC: “Have you seen that change? I mean, now, is it easier to report it? Because I remember, you were looking: When are the new commandments coming down on how to report this?”

Guts: “From personal experience, from my perspective as a helo (helicopter) guy, I don’t think it trickled down to our level, necessarily, because maybe we weren’t, necessarily, the type of platform that was encountering this stuff on a daily basis. But again, if u talk to guys on East Coast, based out of Oceania, certainly the paradigm has shifted for guys like that for sure.”

JC: “And you’ve directly talked with a lot of these guys?”

Guts: “Absolutely, absolutely. So yeah, for guys like them, it was definitely a noticeable change. Was it fleet-wide? I can’t speak to that. I don’t really have an opinion on that. But the fact that, like you said, George, the fact that the Navy did at least seem to be taking the lead on it, absolutely, it’s a point of pride for me. I won’t bash my other brothers and sisters in the other services but I can’t speak to what their plans are, what their intentions are with all this stuff. But there have been some glaring silences, if I can classify it that way, from other services that it kind of makes you scratch your head. Because this is not only a Navy thing, it’s not only an East Coast thing, it’s not only a West Coast thing. It’s worldwide. People are seeing this stuff everywhere.”


JC: “So you have direct knowledge that unidentified craft, that don’t seem to have the typical, what we’d call, propulsion – what we’d see: rotors, wash, plumes, heat signatures – that these are being encountered by our…we’ll just say, Department of Defense, and we’ll say our…all branches of the military that are in the air, doing this. They’re being encountered. They’re encountering these things that we don’t know whose they are, we don’t know who operates them, we don’t know their intent. I mean, that is…you’re saying that, right?”

Guts: “Yeah, I mean, that’s my opinion. And again, I’m not speaking on behalf of the DoD or the service in any way. But, no…yeah, I mean, if you’re asking me and my opinion? Absolutely.”

JC: “That would seem important to me, that our defense systems…my perspective is that that seems important to me. We should know whose vehicles these are.”

Guts: “Absolutely. Look, at the end of the day, the profession of arms is to defend the country and to defend our allies around the world. And if we’re coming across stuff that we don’t know what it is? We want to know what that is. I’ve heard…there’s been criticism in the media over the years about this threat narrative. Well, I’m sorry but you can’t blame a guy whose job it is, is to access threats and take care of them. I mean, that’s our job.”


JC: “Explain that a little bit more for people that are totally new to this. The idea that there are UFOs, they’re unidentified objects, and what’s the threat narrative?”

Guts: “Well, the threat narrative being that a lot of the language that some people have used when talking about UAP or unidentifieds, is, for example…AATIP. Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. The word threat is in the title of the program, right? And there are people that had some problems with that or issues. Why are they looking at this as a threat? We don’t know what they are. Well, again, from the perspective of the profession of arms, from the perspective of the defense and the national interests of the United States, unless you know what you’re dealing with, you kind of have to, unfortunately – again, just my opinion here – it’s a default position that you kind of have to take. Because, at the end of the day, we don’t know what we’re dealing with. So, I think that’s why.”

JC: “Yeah, I mean, so you’ve got the one perspective, which is that from a national defense-position, we should know who’s making these objects, who’s flying them, what the intent is. If we don’t know, we better find out. And then, from another perspective, it’s a flight-safety issue. You’ve got these objects and people every day, there have been some near misses. And then there’s the bigger existential questions that come after that, another narrative about the UFO phenomenon. It’s been here for so long, maybe we’re just seeing them more because our technology and our radar systems are integrated, we have better camera systems, better radars, maybe it’s always been here. The idea that there’s an increase in frequency…it appears that way to us, but we don’t know for certain because maybe they’ve always been there and we’re just seeing them more. Who knows?”

GK: “Can I ask you: Have you become, sort of the unofficial clearinghouse for UFO stories and encounters and tidbits within your circle? I’m asking that in the context of what we talked about before. The Navy’s a small place, you said. So does the word get around, ‘Hey, this guy is interested in this.’ I’m not saying you’re conducting a secret study on behalf of the Navy, but you come across people who have their own stories.”

Guts: “Yeah, absolutely. You know, just in the course of your natural, you know, meeting people and getting to know folks. You know, that’s not the first thing I tell people when I meet them. But, you know, you get to know people and you work in close quarters, and you’re working long hours, long days and long nights, sometimes….you can get to know people. And once I’ve become comfortable with someone and I feel like, ‘Okay, I can.’ Again, stigma, right? If I’m comfortable, if I trust them, that they won’t think I’m a crackpot, I’ll mention, ‘Hey, you know…’ It’s funny, you know, before, there was no real inroad to that conversation, but now, ‘Hey, ever heard of Dave Fravor? Hey, you ever heard of,’ name your incident or name your case.”

JC: “Right. Like a lot has changed over the last five years or so?”

Guts: “Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.”

JC: “So our Navy people are taking this seriously.”

Guts: “Well…”

JC: “Should I reword the question? Is it your experience that people that you see are taking this serious?”

Guts: “Yeah, yeah. I think they’re…well, they’re certainly taking it more seriously now than they ever have. I’ll tell you that. There’s been a big sea change. And I’ve told, you know, close buddies of mine, you know, that I’ve flown with before, ‘Hey, if you ever see something, don’t be afraid to let me know.'”

GK: “But you don’t go like, ‘Hey, I’m John, nice to meet you. Have you ever seen an alien?'”

Guts: “No, no, no, no, no, no.”

JC: “I mean, that’s not, you know, knowing John, he’s always been really, like, really at times, real skeptical, as he should be. But he always goes for, okay, what’s the core of it? I think one of the big things that we’re going to talk about, but I want to hear about your perspective on what the world has seen, when it comes to the big ones. Let’s talk about, you know, when it comes to the Tic Tac video, when it comes to the Gimbal video. So many people have tried to say, ‘Nothing to see here, move on.’ And they try to dissect it to bits where it’s almost like a syndrome, that they’re not seeing what’s right in front of them. So can you maybe tell us a little bit about those videos that kind of came forward? Did that change the way that you saw stuff? Or was that interesting to you? Or?”

Guts: “I mean, for me, absolutely. You know, it definitely did. Again, those videos are tough, because if you don’t know what you’re looking at, you don’t know what you’re looking at. And it’s hard to dissect what those videos are presenting to you. But, you know, again, just with my background, and my experience as an aviator, when you look at something like Gimbal, for example, or you look at something like Tic Tac or Go Fast, what have you, any number of videos that have been released.”



Guts: “When you’re looking at that stuff, and you realize, ‘Okay.’ And you hear the audio of the pilots as well, talking about it. You got an object going against the wind, the wind’s 120 knots or whatever the heck it is. You see this thing maintaining flight, presumably with no visible means of propulsion or traditional control surfaces. I mean, that’s huge. Now you get somebody, average Joe citizen who says, ‘Well, you know, it’s not in HD.’ Well, okay, that’s…all right. That’s…”

GK: “Hey, it’s grainy.”

Guts: “Yeah, it’s grainy, you know.”

JC: “Neil Tyson said that, it pissed me off. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about.”

Guts: “To that point, it’s unfortunate that someone who should, at least in my opinion, someone who should know better would say something like that, right? Folks got to remember, you know, the tools and instruments that we’re flying with…number one, they’re not iPhones, okay? They’re not designed to be taking selfies in the air and post them on social media afterwards to get Likes and posts and all that stuff.”

JC: “These are targeting pods, weapons systems.”

Guts: “Listen, these are weapons systems that we have been trained on to defend the American people with. These are weapons systems, they’re not designed to capture UFOs, they’re not designed to capture UAP. We’re not UFO hunters, you know?”

GK: “You’re not there to make a movie or  a TV show.”

Guts: “We’re not there to make a movie or a TV show, we’re there to defend the nation. So when people talk about the quote, unquote, ‘quality of the footage,’ or the lack of HD or 1080p, or whatever the hell you want to call it, it’s just a little frustrating because people have to realize and remember that look, these systems that we’re using to capture this stuff were not designed to do that. They were designed to wage war on behalf of the American [people], if I’m being blunt. That’s what they were designed to do. We just happen to be in the right place at the right time or the wrong place at the wrong time. Or however you want to look at it, from which perspective. But people have to understand, that look, these videos, there’s a lot more there that people need to inherently understand and realize, there’s something weird here. It’s not…”

JC: “And look, the exclusion of information drives me crazy, right? So we can’t go against the Tic Tac information because you got Commander David Fravor standing up there and being like, ‘Oh, no, I saw it. That’s it.’ You know, you’ve got Commander Chad Underwood, coming forward, like, ‘Nope, I filmed it. That’s what happened. As soon as it shot off to the left, I had them call and look on radar all around, it was gone.’ He said, ‘It didn’t move out of the field of view of the camera, it was gone.’ And if you listened to the interview, ya know. And so, what’s frustrating, what’s difficult is we have, like, the Gimbal. Now you can hear what the pilots are saying. And people are saying, ‘Oh, let’s just exclude what they’re saying and let’s just look at the video.’ Well hold up a second. Isn’t that evidence? Isn’t witness testimony, to corroborate visual evidence?”

GK: “There’s a whole fleet of them out there.”

JC: “Isn’t that important?”

Guts: “Yeah.”

JC: “So it’s so convenient when people try to dissect things to their desire to be able to minimize something.”


(On the flip side, the pilot or WSO in the Gimbal encounter said,  “It is a f**king drone, bro.” ~Joe)


JC: “So the translation, really, in my eyes, the missing link is a lot of these active-duty people, that won’t go on record, they won’t go forward, for fear of their career, for fear of reprisal. If we could just get people to talk with us about this, to go on record. That’s something that I think really builds up public understanding of what we’re seeing in these cases. Now, we don’t have that yet, for the Gimbal. I think we will at some day, but we don’t right now. But I think our goal is to take all the information and look at it, and not just what’s convenient to us.”

Guts: “Well, look, I think, especially, you know, over the past few weeks, months…there’s been this weird effort amongst certain outlets to kind of try and just dismiss all this stuff away: ‘Oh, we figured it out, case closed.’ And I know from personal experiences, guys that I know, and other people that I trust…look, there’s gonna be more people coming out, there’s gonna be more folks. There are witnesses out there, and when the time is right for them, I’m sure they’ll come out and say what they have to say, and it will be really hard to stick that toothpaste back in the tube. It’s already out.”

JC: “Meaning…okay, what would stop somebody from coming forward to the public?”

Guts: “Well look, sure…a lot of things. The fact that they’re still in the military, they’re still active duty. Stigma. Like I said, I think we’re turning a corner but it’s still out there. Depending on, hey, I don’t know, maybe you’re in a squadron where the CO tells you, ‘Hey, you know, what, I don’t care what the hell you saw.’ And I’m not saying this is happening, I’m just saying, you know, it just…it’s person to person. So the folks that you’re around and you’re with, if they’re not okay with you talking about it, that’s going to be real hard for that person to wanna come out and say something.”

GK: “So, in this last five years, so much tremendous change. The public is energized, Congress, major media. But, there is considerable pushback. We’ve been saying, publicly, for a while now, ‘The closer you get to the truth, the closer you get to the goods, the harder the pushback is going to be.'”



GK: “And it’s not only from within the military and the Pentagon, people don’t want this to be taken seriously, it’s their emissaries in the public sector. Debunkers, who…all right, Tic Tac is a bird, it’s a seagull, it’s a flare, it’s afterburners, it’s a drone, it’s a balloon. You know, all those things. Let’s see what sticks. They’ll throw all that stuff out.”


GK: “And we saw the same thing with all the 2019 incidents that we’re going to talk about, the efforts to debunk this stuff. You see those kinds of excuses against the testimony of somebody like Commander Fravor, Commander Underwood, Ryan Graves, people like that. Credible people who are there, who see it, who are experienced. They know what their equipment and their eyes are showing them, are telling them, and yet, these people try to debunk this stuff. You mentioned about media pushback. New York Post has a headline, what is it, ‘2019 cases all explained.'”


JC: “Okay, so let’s get to the brass tax. One of the big things that I wanted the three of us to talk about is what actually happened in 2019, off the West Coast. Why this is important to George and myself, is because we broke that story. We broke that story together. So for everybody that doesn’t know about it, in 2019, in the summer, there was a series of work-ups that were going on off the coast of California. So basically, we had about ten Navy warships that were prepping for departure, and during that work-up, there was a three-night period where there was continuous swarms of unidentifieds, simultaneously around ten Navy warships, that I know of. And it was such a dramatic event, and we were like, ‘Wow, this is incredible!’ And then luckily, George and I were able to get a lot of footage, it was part of a UFO internal report, we were able to put out slides from that report. Images, videos, nine pieces of corroborative, visual evidence. Knapp brought in these three images from the East Coast.”

Read – West Coast: The U.S. Navy Filmed Pyramid Shaped UFOs


Read – East Coast: New Photographs Show Different Shaped Objects.


JC: “And we dropped them, basically, all on the same few days. And then, on the West Coast, which was 2019, it was a UFO. People on the ships, it was a UFO-event series. Now, we have done a lot of work in the meantime, and I’ve consulted with you (Guts) on a lot…about these, just, you know, personally, that there was a lot of witnesses to this. Now, a lot of witnesses have said, you know, ‘Jeremy, I want you to know what happened. Here we go, we’re gonna go through it all. But, you know, I’m not coming forward, I’m not going to talk about it,’ right? Now, you weren’t involved in the 2019 series of events.”

Guts: “No.”


JC: “But I think it’s really important that, here is now a case that the public can really sink their teeth into. And I maintain that we provided the best we could, what I would consider a dream case. We have thermal imagery, we have IR – infrared, we have radar footage, and we have what I call, deck footage, just normal optics from the deck of a boat. So, it’s not like, just a story anymore. Now we have all these pieces of corroborated, visual evidence that really need to be dissected. What’s happened since we’ve done that, is, obviously, a lot of people go in and they try to dismiss certain things, because that’s what they want to do. And there’s no real voices of the people involved to stand up and say, ‘Well, hold on, you know, that’s not how it went down.’ But I think that’s going to change today. So that’s what we need to talk about now, is how the media has handled that, durationally, a lot of excitement. And then we have these ridiculous stories that get propagated, the one that George just mentioned…New York Post.”

GK: “A fine newspaper.”

JC: “And it’s like, 2019, drones series solved. So before we get into that article or anything, what we need to do is go through each of the pieces of footage and evidence. But I think that I want to hear from you first, before we jump into that. Are you satisfied that we have figured this all out? Or are you here today because you’re not satisfied?”

Guts: “Well, look…and again, just my opinion and nothing more than that. I think there’s more meat on that bone. The case is certainly not closed on that incident. I wasn’t there personally, but you (Knapp) mentioned before, big ocean. little Navy.  And you come across folks, and again, just in your natural course of your career, folks that I personally know and work with now. Who, again, you get to know them a little bit more, and you kind of figure out each other’s backgrounds. ‘Hey, where have you been before?’ And someone will mention, ‘Oh yeah, I was on USS’ Name Your Ship. Well, you know, that ship, I know, happens to have been involved in that 2019 series, right? Talk to someone else. ‘Oh, yeah, I was on USS, Whatever.’ And you go, “Oh, interesting. Were you there in 2019?’ And they say, ‘Yeah, I was there in 2019.’ Oh, okay. Again, it’s just this natural conversation that happens, where you finally get to hear firsthand accounts of people that were no-kidding there, saw things with either their own eyeballs, or on the systems that they’re trained to work on, right? The systems that they’re trained to fight with. And you get to hear their side of the story, right? It’s not a piece of footage, it’s not an audio recording, it’s no-kidding, talking to the folks, firsthand.”

GK: “And again, this is…you’re not preparing a classified report for higher ups in the Navy, or contributing to the UAP Task Force,”

Guts: “No, no, no. This is just…”

GK: “You’re talking to friends, colleagues…”

Guts: “I’m talking water-cooler talk, if you wanna call it. Conversations that you have with folks, just in your day to day. And again, we happen to be in the military and we happen to be active duty. But no, it’s not a concerted effort, we’re not compiling a report or anything like that. It’s just like, ‘Oh, you were there? Let’s talk about that.'”

GK: “But again, your impression is, from speaking to them, people who were there, at the incidents we’re gonna talk about is, these are not normal drones. You didn’t buy these at Kmart.”

Guts: “No, again…just my own opinion, and talking with folks that were there…yeah, no, it doesn’t…no, unfortunately, the New York Post, I think, got it wrong (laughs).”

JC: “Okay, well let’s get into it. Bit by bit, let’s get in, so that we all better understand it. So, you wanna start with the Omaha, talk about that?
Guts: “Sure, yeah.”

USS Omaha – Pacific Ocean, December 2019 – via www.seaforces.org


JC: “Okay. So, with the USS Omaha, one of the first bits that George and I released, appears to be a sphere that appears to go into the water. And there’s a lot in there, so let’s maybe play that first video, and then we can just say, ‘What are we seeing here?’ Let’s bring everybody up to date, so we can start talking about it.”


Read – Background: USS Omaha + UFOs In Our Oceans



JC: “Okay, so we can, you know, see it there. And we’ve all seen it 100 times. So, you don’t gotta look at the screen.”

GK: “Thermal-imaging system. This is the dead of night, 100 miles off the West Coast. And this thing is following the USS Omaha.”

JC: “Simultaneously, in this 100-mile radius, which is, you know, far from shore, relatively, you’ve got these objects. This is a spherical-shaped object, this is thermal. So it’s basically a heat-sensing camera. John, in your experience, like, what are we seeing? Like, should we see plumes of heat? What are we seeing and what are we not seeing here?”

Guts: “Yeah, and again, this is kind of one of those videos where, unless you know what you’re looking at, it’s hard to appreciate the significance of what you’re…yeah, you see it, blink in and out there and disappear. On that particular video, what you see is what you get. If the image is representing an oval shape, the heat signature of whatever it was putting out was oval in nature. What are we not seeing on that clip? We’re not seeing wings, we’re not seeing stabilators, we’re not seeing rotors, we’re not seeing exhaust, right? It’s a thermal-sensing system, meaning you’re gonna catch that heat. And trust me, I can’t tell you how many thousands of times I’ve seen something like that on my own, you know, flying in the helo. Yeah, you see it. So it’s very obvious.


Guts: “The jet exhaust from an F-18, taken off the deck of an aircraft carrier, at night, is very – hell, even during the day – it’s very, very noticeable, it’s very distinguishable. You know, even if you show me a point five (0.5) second clip of that, I can tell you exactly what it is. We’re not seeing that in this video. There’s none of that there.”

GK: “Could it be a balloon? I mean, it followed that ship for an hour and there were fourteen other ones around it.”

Guts: “I don’t see how a balloon could, coincidentally, follow a ship for the duration of time period that the crews said it did. And in winds, okay? It’s not the dead…there’s winds out there, you know, off the coast. And typically, a balloon will will drift in the direction of the wind.”

GK: “Do you know of any drones that look like that, that are round, with no wings, rotor, tail, no known propulsion?”

Guts: “No. Me personally? No. No. No.”

JC: “So usually with FLIR, I’ve seen a lot of drone footage with FLIR, and you see, even if it is a military-grade drone, you see the machine.”

Guts: “Yes, absolutely. If it’s a quadcopter, let’s say, you can see the individual, you know, copters on the four sides of the thing. You can make all that stuff out.”

JC: “The people in charge of the Omaha that I’ve spoken with, at various levels, all the way down, but people who are directly involved with fighting the ship and capturing: ‘We’ve never seen anything like this. It has no means of propulsion that we can see. And, in fact, it went into the water.’ And something that I know, is that there was a sub that was sent after, to look for wreckage, to look for the craft itself. And it wasn’t there, it was gone. They called it, within these…what I’ve been exposed to, a trans-medium vehicle. And we’re seeing those words reflected now in Congress and Senate with the UFO whistle-blower act: Trans-medium. What does that mean? Something that can penetrate from space, to air, to sea, with absolute impunity. No inertial effect. That’s what they believe, that’s what we reported.”


GK: “The question is: Did it go into the water? It seems to disappear into the water or disappear altogether. And some have suggested, ‘Well, it just was over the horizon.’ What do you know? You have further information, though, I think both of you do.”

JC: “Yes, certainly I do.”

GK: “Did it go into the water?

JC: “It did. And not just it, not just one. Remember, so this is like…over the Ohama itself, let’s say we have fourteen targets. I recently have spoken with people who were in charge of going…at the end of the video, you can hear, the dude says, ‘Launch helo,’ right? They did. They launched a helo. And the pilots, and the crew on that helo, reported seeing these things go above their flight altitude to evade them, and then into the water to evade them. So now I’ve got direct eyewitnesses that saw them go into the water, tracked them down into the water. We always thought they were going into the water. That’s what our government told us was happening in these documents we obtained, right? However, now we’ve got eyewitnesses. Now, are they going to come forward to me? Probably not! But, like, I’m telling you, and I’ve been right about everything else.”

GK: “So the helo guys, that would be you, that would be you guys.”

Guts: “Sure. Yeah. yeah. No, that’s a pretty typical response if there was something…cause you don’t know what it is. Hell, maybe there’s somebody that needs help in the water, and that’s why you would send a helo out there to conduct some sort of search and recovery effort to try and recover whatever it was. I’d love to talk to those pilots myself.”

JC: “That one, I think, would be very easy to connect you with, right? That’s like, just somebody who..and this is something out of his personal interest. If he wants to talk to them, great. I mean, I don’t need the back-up or for you to say it’s real, but the thing is, for your knowledge, that’s so important. So 100%.”

Guts: “Let’s be honest, I know we’re gonna have to talk about it here more in a second, but…those aren’t the only witnesses.”

JC: “No, we’re about to go deep, bro.

GK: “Before we leave the Omaha, one of the other videos that you made public, Jeremy, is the radar screen, which shows…there’s like fourteen of these things popping in and out around that ship. That kind of circumstance. I mean, I’m sure Navy ships encounter drones and balloons and things, whether they’re closer to shore or out in the ocean, but would that be cause for alarm? I mean, you have these targets of unknown origin all around the ship.”

Guts: “Absolutely. And I hear…look, I follow #UFOTwitter, and I see the banter going back and forth. And, I hear folks, you know, complaining about. ‘Why didn’t you just shoot them down?’ Well hold on a second. People have to understand…again, it’s not like the movies, it’s not like on TV. We’re not just going guns a-blazing everywhere we go, as much as people would like to think that. There is very specific steps that have to happen for any Navy unit to track something and certainly, engage something. When you’ve got something leaving the barrel, I mean, that’s a big deal.”

JC: “And you’re just off the coast of California. People forget that.”

Guts: “We’re just off the coast of California, we’re in our own backyard. We’re not going out there, loaded to bear, every time we go. The majority of our flying is training, we’re out there training. And no, we don’t train with live ordnance. In fact, training with live ordnance happens less often than not. So, yes, it is a big deal that unknowns or unidentifieds are swarming our units. Are there procedures in place to counteract that? Sure, but you gotta remember, we’re not overseas. We’re in our own backyard, conducting training.”

JC: “Which is both more concerning, right?”

Guts: “Yeah. yeah.”

JC: “The thing what you’re saying is you look before you pull the trigger.”

Guts “100%, absolutely.”

JC: “So, I’ll give my two cents on it, which is directly from some of the individuals fighting these ships. Is that there is this triangle of kinetic action, which is opportunity, intent & capability. I asked a lot of the sailors, and a lot of people involved, ‘Who would be pulling the trigger?’ I was like, ‘So, how do you feel about this, now that it’s all done?’ They said, ‘I feel like I failed in my duties.’ I go, ‘Well, what do you mean?’ It like, haunts some of these folks, right? Because, it didn’t seem like an aggressive maneuver, it seemed more like a surveillance and performance. These were the words that were said to me. Remember, and I’ll be specific because I don’t think people know: Around these ten ships, there was usually one high altitude, and we know that it went up to about 21,000 feet, which is important to keep in mind. And then there was this ballet around them, taunting, coming in at an angle. However, there was action taken. There was action taken and I think we’ll talk about this. Which is that…on two of the ships in particular, there was anti-drone technology that was attempted to be used. And different types. On one of the ships…it was three different types that they…three different ways. All of which were ineffective. And they went out and did a test after, right? Some of the guys went out and did a test after, to see, ‘Hey, does this stuff work?'”

Guts: “To test the equipment.”

JC: “It worked like a charm! They would be able to hit things down, return to sender, no problem.”

GK: “But it didn’t work in this instance.”

JC: “It did not work in this instance. And I know of, personally, three ships that…what was three, that tried to – was it two or three – that tried to do this actual defense maneuver. Which, you know, obviously it’s like, no big deal. If something’s there, you can get it down. But also, there was attempts to just find out, where are they coming from. So we’ll get more into that, but let’s show the radar footage. I wanna get your opinion on this.”


Read – Background: Navy UFO Radar Data & Footage from USS Omaha – 07/15/2019


JC: “So we’ve all seen this. And I just wanna see…in the middle of the image, that’s the ship, right?”

Guts: “Yep.”

JC: “OK. And so, you see these things popping in and out.”

Guts: The reason this is important is because, again, it’s all about corroborative data, okay? It’s not just the witnesses, it’s not just the thermal footage of an object going in the water. You’ve got a screen capture of real objects around the ship.”

JC: And there’s up to, I think, fourteen. And the thing is, they’re kind of going in and out of radar. Because in this radar system, if they go below that scan volume, they can kind of disappear for a second. So they were wondering, what’s going on. Turns out, a lot of these were apparently going into the water and having this trans-medium vehicle. Okay, great. So then you’ve got these illuminated objects, about ten to fourteen feet in diameter, that have no control surfaces…that are flying with impunity, and going in and out of the water, going up to like 21,000 feet, at least, that we know of. This is starting to build an interesting case. We’ve got radar now, we’ve got thermal, and a bunch eyewitnesses that people haven’t heard from…YET.”

GK: As somebody who is completely ignorant of this technology, I’d be wondering: What are they doing? What is the purpose of that? Is it surveillance, intelligence gathering? What would be your guess?

Guts: Well that’s the million-dollar question, right? Is…who’s operating them? Number one. What’s their intent? Because it’s ambiguous, right? They didn’t crash into the ship, thank God. They weren’t running into people or anything like that. But, they were certainly, like you said and like we’ve heard from folks that we’ve talked to, there was definitely this sense of…maybe some sort of surveillance and performance aspect of it.”

JC: “Yeah, look what I can do.”

Guts: “Look what I can do. And we’ll talk about it a little bit later on. But these objects performed maneuvers that are just….I mean, come on. They’re not drones, okay? They’re not conventional drones.”

JC: “And we’re gonna get into some of what witnesses have said, but I wanna go to the third piece that I think is important. It’s not as visually stunning, it’s the least visually stunning. But the next video is called deck footage.”


Read: Background: UFO Deck Footage + USS Omaha


JC: “And…why this is important to me. So you got like a thermal thing, and you’re like, ‘Okay, that’s probably just…you can discard it and say that’s probably just a balloon.'”

Murgia Tweet: “With video released, does Tyler (Rogoway) still think it’s a balloon?”

Rogoway Tweet: “YES!”


JC: “Then you get radar and you realize, ‘Okay, now this is something more substantial.” Then you get this footage, and I thought it was so important, I released it last because it was the least visually stunning. But why this footage, to me, is important, is because now, you can’t say that that’s just, you know, some hot or cold balloon. Like, okay, well it’s self luminous. So now these things got lights. So all of a sudden, they’re machines, right? This is like…so I found this to be important that they’re self luminous. And this is just some dude on the deck filming: ‘Hey, they’re surrounding our ship, what’s going on?’ But I think that that was lost on a lot of people. Again, it establishes, in my mind, corroborative, visual evidence with each new source of evidence. You get another perspective on, you know, I gotta take this a little more seriously. So that video itself is not super impressive, but do you agree that it’s good to have another layer, right?”

Guts: “I would never discount any of those pieces. It all…they’re all pieces of the puzzle, okay? They’re all pieces of the puzzle and right now, we don’t know if we even have all the pieces to build the puzzle.”

JC: “I’m pretty sure there’s some being held back, to be honest with you.”

Guts: “I think so, too. And so, anything that we can get to try and paint an accurate picture of what happened, I think is important.”

GK: “We put these images out together, Jeremy first on his website, ExtraordinaryBeliefs.com and me on KLAS TV. And, of course, you know, you have a range of responses from the UFO world, including from people who don’t want this to be true. Either they don’t like us, they wanna slap us down. So they go to the Pentagon and say, “Is this real?” And we made a point that all that footage was in the hands of the UAP Task Force and the Pentagon. And to our absolute astonishment, the Pentagon comes back and says, “Yes, it’s real. It was recorded by the Navy.” It gives us a little bit more credibility and shot down a lot of people who wanted to shoot us down.”


JC: “And also, I mean, let’s, again, because this is like a brand new conversation we’re having about it. Let’s be clear, for everybody who doesn’t know. Which is that…and I’ve said it before, and we’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: So, we had knowledge of certain assets that were in a UFO briefing that was being passed around within our military and our government, to train people in order how to identify true UFOs & then how to report them. Now this was a classified briefing that was going around within the military, that as journalists, we got wind of. But inside, inherently unclassified, was some – not everything we put out – but some. So, we were able to get that information out to the public. It was never gonna be seen, publicly, but we got it out. But on top of that, we somehow got a bunch of footage that our Pentagon didn’t have. Our UAPTF, the Task Force…they didn’t have it. So we were like, kind of astonished. ‘Well, we should make sure they have it, cause we’re about to release it.’ So, luckily we know people, that was the right way to do it, and we said, ‘Hey, this is coming out, we wanna make sure you got it.’ So we tried to do everything in the right way. Maybe that’s what they so quickly validated that this is real military footage, filmed of unidentifieds, included in the investigation into UFOs. Maybe that’s why, because we did it right, and got it to them. So that’s how it went down, for the audience that doesn’t know about this.

“But there’s more to it. It wasn’t just one ship, the USS Omaha, there was also the USS Russell that we released, not only video, but also a slide that was contained in that briefing. And this one gets everybody hot and bothered because, first of all, it’s green, right?”


Read – Background: The U.S. Navy filmed “PYRAMID” shaped UFOs

JC: “[But first], let’s do the slide of the Omaha, This is an actual briefing slide that is unclassified, however it was contained within a classified briefing.”



JC: “As journalists, George and I were able to obtain this image. This is a UAS: Unmanned Aerial System, some people say.”

Guts: “Sure. Yep.”

JC: “Spherical in shape, right? They say it right there. Spherical in shape.”

GK: “They searched the water for wreckage, the search was ineffective.”

JC: “One of the people that actually designated, like…what these were, [said]: The only we had that we could classify it as, was unmanned, because it wasn’t, let’s say, big enough as a normal craft, to hold a human. So, it was a UFO. It was unidentified, still is unidentified, but we call it an Unmanned Aerial System. And look, this straight out of a briefing (looking at the slide). And what’s so important to me was that it’s not just like we’re making this up, you know? Other things went in front of our eyes when we were investigating all this stuff. We were exposed to other information, is what I’m trying to say.”

USS Russell – Pacific Ocean, October 2019 – via www.seaforces.org


JC: “Let’s move on to the to the last bit of the USS Russell. USS Russell was another ship that was out during this workup. And USS Russell, it had a slightly different experience than the other ships. Same kind of thing, swarms. But when George and I saw the videos, and we saw what was reported, we’ll talk about the slide and what was reported. But let’s watch the video.”


Read – Background: The Navy Filmed Pyramid Shaped UFOs


JC: “They look triangular by angle of observation. However, we were told that it was in things that passed in front of our eyes, that they were pyramid in shape. And so we reported that and we put it out.”

GK: “Pretty famous now, this is all over the place.”

Guts: “I’m familiar with with this clip. And, you know, look, at the end of the day, whether it’s a pyramid, or a triangle, or whatever the hell it is, I think what’s lost on people, again, is the fact that that there was a there there to begin with. There was something there.”

JC: “Let’s describe it. So what you’re referencing is that there’s this big argument about the shape of it, right?”

Guts: “Sure.”

JC: “That’s what people are saying. It’s a lens effect. And actually, they went all the way up to Congress. At first, it was the little NVG, Night Vision. It was a PVS-14, is the standard issue since 2001, to our armed services. So the guy’s got this, and he’s filming through it with a camera. So first, they said this one had a triangle aperture, right? And that’s what’s causing this effect, this distortion, right? And then, I was like, looking at it because I got one. And I’m like, ‘Nah, man. Nah.’ They’d have to like, consciously put tape on it. So then, they kind of backtracked, moved the goalposts. Now it’s the camera that’s doing this. We started asking people involved, and the funniest thing someone said to us was, ‘Look, if it was pyramid in shape, it would still look like a pyramid, even if there was an aperture issue.’ Which I thought was hilarious, right? That’s true. But I’m not staking my claim…”

GK: “We don’t have a dog in this fight. We don’t care if it looks like a pyramid. Is it an unknown craft? That’s what we wanted to know. And yeah, it is.”

JC: “Yeah!”

Guts: “What matters is there was something there that wasn’t supposed to be, that we don’t know what it was.”


JC: “Seven hundred feet, as you’ve said to me a bunch, over the last few years.”

GK: “There’s a rangefinder, it was seven hundred feet above the deck.”

JC: “And there were three of them. And so, we don’t have all the videos from that, you know, but there were three of them, close proximity to one another, seven hundred feet off of the tail of it, right? And it would follow the ship, and at one point, the ship stopped, and the object stopped.”


GK: “Am I correct in saying that both of you have spoken with crew members who were there?”

JC: “Oh, yeah. People…”

Guts: “Yes.”

GK: “So I don’t know…where we. You have, John?”

Guts: “Yeah. Yeah, I’m aware of people that were on those ships at that time.”

JC: “And I can say I’ve filmed and recorded with people that were not only there at that time, but had the responsibilities and duties that would directly give me information about how these things were dealt with. And I think, really importantly…so let’s just get to the the basic understanding: I don’t care if these things are shaped like Mickey Mouse. They’re craft of unknown origin, flying with impunity, moving along, intelligently controlled. We don’t know whose they are, we don’t know where they came from, where they launched, where they landed. And we took action against them from the USS Russell, in three different ways: anti-drone technology. And all of which were ineffective. Now, when you talk about witnesses, and we’ve both talked with people involved. And again, I have filmed and recording with, you know, they don’t want it out, they’re active duty, but they gave me a good, by letting me record with them. But I’ll tell you this… Do you (Guts) want to talk about this? We both…one of the witnesses told us, as they were watching it. What did these things off the USS Russell…what did they do?”



Guts: “One eyewitness account in particular that was…it was pretty extraordinary. First thing they noticed was these lights, kind of up in the sky. What distinguished these lights from any others is kind of the follow-on maneuvers that it executed.”

JC: “On the USS Russell.”

Guts: “On the USS Russell.”

JC: “And this is a sailor that we that we both know.”

Guts: “Yes. Yeah.”

JC: “And that was there, and saw it.

Guts: “Yeah, they were up topside, you know, outside of the ship, as opposed to some of the other folks who we’ve talked to who are kind of fighting from the inside of the ship, who can’t corroborate what they see on their screens, visually, with their eyeballs, right?”

JC: “That would be like, it had a SPY-1.

Guts: “Yeah.”

JC: “The USS Russell had a SPY-1.”

Guts: “Sure.”

JC: “The SPY-1 itself, by the way, has some unique properties. But that SPY-1, they’re inside the ship, so they’re kind of getting that internal data of how they’re moving, the distances, all that stuff, where they’re coming from, but then there’s people topside.”

Guts: “But then there’s people topside, right? And so this one individual in particular that we’re talking about, what they saw was, again, these lights up in the sky, and all of a sudden, they just dropped down to the horizon level, you know, almost instantaneously, right? Drops down on the horizon, and all of a sudden it starts approaching the ship from the stern, from the rear of the ship. Once these lights come forward, first it goes up the port side of the ship. And it’s funny, to hear them talk about it, it’s almost like they…as this object or light, or whatever it was, was kind of flying around the ship, the sailors on the deck are following it, right? So first they’re on the aft end of the ship, and the object moves forward, so they move forward, right? So now they’re on the port-forward side of the ship. And it’s just floating there, a couple hundred feet in the air. Then it moves to the starboard side, right across, and they scurry across the ship. And they’re kind of, you know, going through wherever they need to go to get to the other side. And they maintain eyes on it, because they’re just shocked at what they’re seeing. And then, probably the most dramatic part of the of the event was…once it moved to the starboard side of the ship, it just shot straight up into the air. And the word that the sailor that we spoke with used was, ‘It just zoomed, it zoomed, it zoomed straight up in the air. And when you ask them, ‘Did you hear anything? Did you see anything, in terms of like, again. exhaust?'”

JC: “Or a sonic boom.”

Guts: “Right. Did you hear it? Right, exactly. And of course, the answer is, ‘No'”

GK: “So, this sounds like a drone I could buy at Walmart then, or something (JC and Guts laugh). Obviously it is not.”

Guts: “Yeah. Yeah. No, obviously it’s not. And again, if we’re gonna take that sailor’s account at face value, which I do, and again, I know the individual and I trust that what they’re…they’re telling it like it is. They’re telling what they saw, right? It’s dramatic. And no, it’s not a drone from Walmart that you can get, or anywhere else for that matter. That I know of.”

JC: “Yeah. And this is one of many eyewitness. It’s a little frustrating. I’m saying that what’s missing is these people coming forward and saying, ‘Look, I was part of that, and this is what I encountered.’ It’s just hard to get people to come and do that because of the nature of working in the military. But these accounts…”

GK: “This whole issue about drones has been used to discredit and debunk many of these incidents and to strip it of its aura of mystery. Can you, without giving away or crossing a line, can you just talk about drones and whether you see them? You’ve served both domestically in the Navy and around the globe? Do people send up drones and take pictures of Navy ships? Do you see adversary drones that are intelligence-gathering operations?”

Guts: “This is what I’m comfortable saying. What I’ll say is this: The short answer? Yeah. Yeah. We’re out there and we’re as on the front lines as you can get, around the world. And so, do we encounter drones? Yeah, we absolutely do. And it’s only gotten, you know, as drones have proliferated around the world, they’ve become cheaper and easier to get a hold of and operate. Yeah, it’s something that we encounter, you know, pretty regularly. You know, me personally, on deployments around the world, yeah, we’ve come across it. So it’s definitely something that we have to take into account whenever we’re going over the horizon and working around the world.”

GK: “Well, we’ve read public accounts, media accounts that show that our adversaries are developing drones. We’re seeing, you know, you can’t talk about this, but in the Ukraine, drones have taken a very pivotal role in that conflict that’s going on. So, China, Russia, we’re sure they’re developing some advanced drones. I mean, do you see – I don’t know if you can talk about this – drones of a more sophisticated level that, you know is being flown by some potential adversary?”

Guts: “Unfortunately, I’m gonna have to politely decline to comment on that. But like I said, you know, in short, they’re something that we have to take into account, that we didn’t really have to take into account, you know, ten, twelve years ago, like we do now. It’s something that we have to consider when we’re going abroad and you know, operating (internationally?).”

GK: “On the drone question. So, it also depends on where you are. So Jeremy, you’ve got some great information and testimony based on where these…you don’t encounter Kmart drones a hundred miles out to sea.”

JC: “Yeah, so what we’re gonna do now is kind of bring a new body of evidence and information to people because, for me, it’s like, you know, I’m getting all this information, and it’s starting to really make me understand what’s happening. The argument has never been, by the way, drone. Drone is just a designation of something that doesn’t have an immediate, physical, biological pilot in it. And it’s usually determined by the size of the craft, and by the maneuverability. But again, remember, that drone that we’re looking at is spherical, with no flight control system, so I’m already a little skeptical that this is a Walmart thing.”

USS Paul Hamilton – Pacific Ocean – December 2019


JC: “So what I think now is, with the Paul Hamilton, let’s talk about that ship. It hasn’t gotten a lot of attention. And this was one of the ten ships that was part of this 2019 swarm. And very uniquely, the Paul Hamilton was in closest proximity to a ship called the Bass Strait, which is a cargo ship that’s run by Pacific Basin.”



JC: “And I wanna start with an image that comes up that the media has said, which is that the case has been solved. So Zack, can we bring up the first image from The New York Post? Their horrible, disingenuous, ridiculous, parroted reporting of untruth, because you’re about to see it.”


JC: “So if people can see that: Mysterious drone attacks on US warships solved. I don’t agree with that assessment, (Knapp laughs) and let’s get to specifically why. But to tell you what that’s saying. So there was a cargo ship that was right by the Paul Hamilton. And it has been propagated, this mythology, that the these hundred-plus drones, within a hundred-mile radius, were launched from, and landed back to this ship called the Bass Strait. In fact, it’s propagated so much you can even find it on Wikipedia now. It’s already, you know, it’s just…okay, Wikipedia. There we go. Just go ahead and read it, George.”

GK: “‘Pacific Basin is the owner and operator of Bass Strait, a cargo ship that launched a series of drones that surveilled and harassed United States Navy ships, including the USS Paul Hamilton, in the waters off of Southern California in 2019.’ No equivocation. It is the ship that launched these drones.”

JC: “Yeah, so let’s get that garbage off the screen because it’s false, okay? So but here’s the deal, man. The reason why you find it trickled down to Wikipedia is because this has been a false narrative that has been propagated by, you know, subpar journalists and subpar journalism sources, and they try to trickle it down all the way. Now, somebody just reads that, they’re like, ‘Oh, great. Case solved.’ So let’s back the fuck up. Okay, Paul Hamilton. So, I think what we should do, is we should…we have two witnesses that were willing to put their voice out there and you can affirm that they are actually…”

Guts: “Yeah. No, these are guys that I know personally. One of them I work with every day.”

JC: “Oh, wow! Okay, there we go.”

Guts: “Guys that I’m very familiar with.”

JC: “Okay. So…yeah, it’s funny, man, people are happy to share on the level that they can about these experiences. So I’m going to play, I think an audio clip would be good for…”

GK: “We’re not using the names, though, right?”

Guts: “No, no,”

JC: “No way. So this is Paul Hamilton, ten ships, 2019 swarm. Individuals that were there. Two of them. Wanna get their perspective on a few things. So first was, you know, asking: Is this a test? Was this just some U.S. government tasks during workups, right? And we’ll just listen to it and talk about it after?”

~Audio Begins~

JC: “What did you think was going on during this encounter series? Did you think this was a test?”

Eyewitness #1 (E1): “So like, we didn’t really think anything of it, other than that it was like the people testing us. Like, purposefully sent out drones to go harass us. So, it’s like the most high-end technology, followed us. And then after the first night, that was pretty apparent that it wasn’t. But like, at the same time, it’s like, ‘Hey, you need to track this more closely. You need to follow them and see where they go afterwards.'”

JC: “Isn’t it typical, though, if that were the scenario, and you were being tested, at some point afterwards, you would be made aware that you were being tested? And whether or not you passed or didn’t pass the test?”

E1: “Yeah.”

JC: “And that never happened?”

E1: “No (laughs), no, because like, it wasn’t a test. Unless there’s like a secret at like the highest level and no one’s told anyone, that wasn’t a test during SWATT. But like, the mindset at the time was test during SWATT, but also looking back, with like, kind of a clear eye, it’s like, that makes no sense to have a test that lasts that long, at night, after a really busy day, when we’re shooting like, live ordnance during the day. It would just get into the safety of like, what we were doing, and it wouldn’t make any sense for them to do that.”

~Audio Ends~

JC: “So, can you explain to us, like, you know, so this is somebody that’s saying…he’s saying it wasn’t a test device, it wasn’t our tech. So explain that.”

JG: “So, you know, what you hear that individual talking about in the beginning is, you know, at first, that’s kind of the assumption everybody makes, right? Yeah, okay, we’re being tested, you know? They’re sending out drones, the tests are different tactics and procedures to respond to this thing. But then it starts happening night after night. It’s happening at hours that are really, really outside of the hours of testing, if you want to call it that, right? Because you got to remember, these ships are participating in other training events throughout the entire day, okay? And shooting live ordnance, you heard him talk about that. And like I told you before, whenever we shoot live ordnance, that’s a big deal, okay? Certainly, in real-world actions, but also in training, you know? We don’t do that lightly and there’s a lot that goes into that. So, the idea that we would be executing a high-stress, high-level event during the day, and then to be tested with drone swarms in the middle of the night… Because you gotta remember, you got to put yourself in the mindset, in the shoes of these guys back in 2019. This is happening, you know, about 2200 to like, 0300 at night, you know? 10 o’clock at night till about two or three in the morning sometimes, right? And, I mean, is it totally out of the question that we would be tested at that time? No, but when you consider and you heard him…I’m glad you heard him say it: Safety, right? No matter what we’re doing, we’re always gonna operate with a certain level or amount of safety precautions imbued into the training event, so that we don’t do something stupid, or God forbid, get somebody hurt, you know? So you heard him talk about that.

“You heard him talk about how, okay, night one, okay, it’s probably a test. But then, something that you heard him say was that folks higher up in the chain of command started asking, ‘Hey, start gathering all the data that you can about this and feed it up.’ Okay? And who knows, maybe it was a test of our information-gathering capabilities. But that is not something that would be typically done, right? There’s much more important aspects of our tasks and procedures that need to be tested, not how information flows up and down the chain of command. That’s easy. You can easily put a report together and send it up to whoever it needs to get to.”

JC: “Without a hundred objects, with no point of departure or landing.”

Guts: “Exactly. So, night one? Sure, maybe. Night two, three, four, or whatever it is? They realize, okay, this is real and there’s something else going on here. And oh, by the way, again, folks higher in the chain of command are asking for us to stay on this case, you know?”

JC: “So, to go to your point there, is that, okay, first we ell this was our technology and it was just a test. It started becoming very apparent to everybody on the ships, you know, whoa, this is real, like, we gotta deal with this. This is not just some, you know, even like a black projects test, which, by the way, is not something you do, like, you know, in that training area, around… But I’ve talked to people that have encountered black projects, and there is a process.”

Guts: “Oh, there’s a whole process. Absolutely. I haven’t had this happen to me, personally, but I know of guys, personally, who have seen stuff they shouldn’t have seen

JC: “Commander Underwood did and he told me the process.”

Guts: “There ya go. He has, you know, you come across something that you see, that you’re not supposed to see, well, you’re gonna get a call. Especially as an aviator, you know, as soon as you land on deck and you start doing all the necessary paperwork required for any flight, anyway, you’re also gonna get a call from the appropriate intelligence folks and be like, ‘Hey, sorry, I need you to come by the intel shop and you gotta fill out…’ It’s a huge hassle, right? (laughs) And I can imagine that for someone, you know, a civilian, let’s say, ‘Man, I’d love to see something like that!’ No, not really (laughs). It’s kind of a pain in the ass.”

GK: “And at the end of that process, do they say, ‘You didn’t see that’?”

Guts: “At the end of that process, you know, you sign…you agree to whatever paperwork they tell you, that, ‘Hey, you can’t talk about this.’ That didn’t happen with anybody in 2019. Certainly no one that we’ve talked to, and not that I’ve heard of through other channels, either.”

JC: “And also, the head of the Navy was asked about this and made a statement. And they (media) were like: ‘Have you figured this out? Whose are they?'”


JC: “It is undetermined. Everybody we know, involved in this [has said], ‘We don’t know whose these were.’ But let’s just start with eliminating…these were not ours. That’s the consensus of everybody. That’s, to the best of our understanding, that’s…despite their capabilities, they weren’t ours.”

Guts: “Well, it wasn’t a test, as I think is…it certainly wasn’t a test, you know?”

JC: “So, I wanna play another clip now and this one is really important. We kind of put this forward in one of our first episodes, you know, that these things were coming from the west. And it took me a while to understand it, and you really…this is why I like, go to Guts, ‘Hey, man, does this mean anything?’ He’s like, ‘It means a lot.’ Okay, so let’s hear what he had to say, and then I want to hear John’s reaction.”

~Audio Begins~

JC: “So from what direction was this swarm coming?”

Eyewitness 1 (E1): “It was actually coming in the west.”

JC:” It was coming from the west.”

E1: “Yeah, from the west.”

JC: “So over water.”

E1: “Over water, away from land. I mean, like, the only thing we have over there is like, Hawaii, which probably was closest thing west of us.”

JC: “And when they were departing, what direction were they departing to?”

E1: “They would depart in different, on different bearings than they came in on.”

JC: “So normally, always from the west and then departing in a different direction?”

E1: “Yeah, yeah. Not exclusively, but yeah, pretty constantly, it’d be a different bearing. Which is weird, right? Like, so if you deploy a drone to go check something out, it would come back. So that was like, something significant enough for us to like, report the drone’s going in a different direction than they came.”

~Audio Ends~

JC: “Okay. What is he saying and why is it important?”

Guts: “So again, you know, the whole fact that these things were coming from the west. When you hear him say, you know, I think the closest thing to the west is Hawaii, right (laughs)? And, you know, Hawaii is, you know, I don’t know how many thousands of nautical miles from the coast of San Diego. There’s nothing out there, there’s just open water to the west, okay? And like they mentioned, if it were a drone, or a typical drone being operated by a typical drone operator, typically, if you’re gonna go check something out…if I’m sitting here with a drone and I got the joystick in my hand, and I’ve got the drone on my lap here, and I’m gonna launch it across the street, I’m gonna go straight there and come straight back, right? It takes battery power to, you know, whenever you have long durations of time of flight. Just the controlling aspect of the drone, you want to maintain eyes on and all the time. I guess you could make the argument that, ‘Well, you know, if you’re really trying to surveil, you kind of don’t want to come in on the same bearing that you’re coming out on.’ But regardless, these things were always coming from the west and then departing into into another direction and there’s nothing out to the west, but ocean.”

JC: “Yeah. So even if we’re talking off of another ship, let’s be really clear. So what’s happening is, in this 100-mile radius, swarms simultaneously on ten ships. And we’re giving one example of Paul Hamilton where these objects are appearing from the west, where there is no landmass, there’s no ship that’s going to be launching them from the west, and then they’re departing after long periods of durational use, they’re departing in another direction. So this causes a problem of where’s the launch, where’s the land?”

Guts: “Yeah.”


On July 27th, 2021, during the 4Bidden Disclosure Conference, Lue Elizondo had this to say about drones. 

Lue: “Let’s look at the best drone technology we have, and I’m gonna be very careful what I say here, make sure I don’t upset anybody back in DC. But let’s say – here’s our little pen again –  this is a drone. There’s two types of drones, for the most part, and there’s other ones as well. There’s hybrids and [inaudible] and whatnot. But you have those that can take off vertically, kind of like a quadcopter, and they can hover and they can loiter around for a little while. And then you’ve got those that are fixed wing and they can fly long range but they have to fly fast enough to create lift and to continue to move. So think a Predator or something like that. The ones that move fast and fixed wing could fly really far, but they have a very hard time loitering. They have to fly racetracks, they can’t just stop and hover and loiter for twenty, thirty minutes. And just like the quadcopters that can hover, they have a hard time loiter ability because you need fuel and fuel is weight, and weight to a rotary wing vertical lift is the devil. So you want to be as light as possible and that’s why a lot of these little quadcopters are so light.

“So if you wanted to launch something over a Navy ship that can hover over the flight deck as has been reported through the Omaha and the Kidd incidents, then you’re talking about a drone capability that is probably not a fixed-wing, long-range capability. It means it has to be launched from somewhere near by. Even two, three miles, as far as you can with some of the more, if you will, commercially available, control systems. Even the best military systems you have some much longer capability, but you still have to launch them and you have to recover them, you don’t just let them crash into the ocean because then they can be found, right? So they have to be launched from somewhere and they have to be controlled from somewhere by someone. And there’s an infrastructure, a huge footprint, that is required to do that. You need a trained operator to do it, with enough juice where you can send out a signal to your quadcopter, your quadcopter can react and then enough, if you will, payload on this, so it can send the signal back to the operator. The operator knows where the drone is, it’s looking at pictures and all that stuff, and then be able to fly the drone all the way back.

“So there’s more practical challenges with trying to create something like that. If you’re talking about a fixed-wing drone, that’s a little easier but it’s got to keep moving, it’s got to be moving fairly fast, and it’s not just going to stop and hover. So, therein lies the problem. If you want a loiter, you’ve got to launch it from relatively nearby. Now, the Navy has sea-domain awareness. They are the best at knowing anything that’s in the ocean. These guys know. That’s how we catch these drug runners coming in on these little tiny submersibles that you can barely see. There’s a reason we catch them. So we know, if there’s, let’s say, a Chinese frigate nearby that’s launching drones, we know that. A lot of these ships have transponders on them, AIS. We know, unless they’re squawking black, meaning they’re not transmitting, then we have other ways to find out who’s in our area and we have very high-fidelity radar systems and we have electro-optical systems. So, it’s unlikely. I’m not saying it’s impossible because the Chinese have harassed us before and vice versa with unmanned, aerial vehicles and aerial systems and by the way, that technology is improving, exponentially, almost every year, so at some point these things may have that capability that we’re seeing, but right now, they don’t, and that’s the problem. The foreign, adversarial technology isn’t where it needs to be for us to see the things that we’re seeing, it’s not there yet. It might be there in ten, fifteen, twenty years, but it’s not there now. And that’s why this is a problem, that’s why we need to have this conversation because if it’s not U.S. technology, and it’s not foreign, adversarial technology then whose technology is it, right? I mean we have to have that conversation. You can’t have an intellectual, a truly, objective conversation about this topic, and not introduce that as potentially, potentially part of the calculus.


And a few months before that, on May 20th, 2021, Elizondo had this conversation with researcher, Richard Dolan, about the possibility of drones over Navy ships.

Lue: “When you really look at it, you look at what is required to have something that can hover over the flight of a boat for hours at a time, and not a single one of these have been shot down, not a single one of these have ever been recovered from the ocean, not a single one of them has had a mechanical issue, not a single one has been able to be intercepted.”

Dolan: “It seems insane.”

Lue: “And by the way, we have helicopters on these ships and not a single one has been caught by one of our helicopters or aircraft. You know, okaaaay. But you really got to do a lot of mental gymnastics then, to prove to me that that is some sort of drone technology. I’m not saying it’s impossible. What I’m simply saying is you’ve got to build a case then to prove that. Because at this point, that’s a greater feat than saying it’s a UAP. Really. Because at that point, it’s, ‘Okay, well, we’re really talking about something then that, if a foreign adversary has, is really incredible.'”

~ ~ ~

Back to Knapp, Corbell and Guts…

George Knapp (GK): “The other part would be tracking them. So let me play dumb devil’s advocate. Let’s say you’ve developed a super-duper, double-secret probation drone that can fly hundreds of miles, and you launch it from, say, San Diego, or Catalina and it’s gonna buzz these ships. You should be able to track those things. Those ships should be able to track them.”

Guts: “Yeah.”

GK: “Coming there and going back.”

Guts: “That’s a great point. So even on the systems that they were tracking them on, they always came from the west. So it’s not like at launched from San Diego, did a big circle around, and then came from the west. No. It was always coming from the west, originally. Does that make sense?”

GK: “Yeah, but there’s no drone that you know of…”

Guts: “Not that I know of? No, no.”

GK: “That could have that kind of range or fly from Hawaii from the west.”

Guts: “No, no.”

Jeremy Corbell (JC): “And the other thing is, we’re hearing from somebody very isolated, who was there from the Paul Hamilton. But those that I’ve spoken with, who were in a position to know this on the Omaha, said, ‘I’m gonna regret saying this to you, Jeremy. But they just seemed to appear. That’s when we started talking about the fact that were going into the water.’ So, the the idea is, if they’re going off radar, off scan volume, and even optically, as I told you, the helo pilots are seeing [them] go into the water. They’re likely coming out of the water, too. So that’s what’s really interesting. This possibility that they’re trans-medium, emerging from the water and descending into the water.”

GK: “Could there be a submarine out there that’s launching drones, somewhere in the water? And if so, would we able to detect a sub and detect where those drones are coming from?”

Guts: “Right, umm…”

GK: “Right, you can’t…”

Guts: “I think I’m gonna, yeah…I think I won’t be able to…yeah.”

JC: “But even if you, I mean, I can tell you from public, you know, stuff…that is not a technology that is currently readily available by any nation to be in our waters that I’m aware of, public knowledge, or anybody else that I know, that would know. So this idea that…look, if there was a foreign nation’s submarine within that radius of those hundred mile ships, that were launched, wouldn’t that kind of be big news, don’t ya think?”

Guts: “Yeah, that’d be a big deal.”

JC: “Yeah, I think that’d be a big deal. So it’s kind of a ridiculous idea that people…they’ll just throw it out there, like, ‘They were probably launched as swarms by subs.'”

GK: “We know that that has been thrown out there, that even newspapers have done it. The New York Times. So, in advance of the anticipated Halloween release of this UAP report to Congress, the New York Times does a hit piece. Call it a pre-bunking, where they have these general, generic explanations. Oh yeah, same thing is that New York Post story, we’ve explained this all, it’s no big deal, it’s gonna be drones. And, of course, we don’t know of any drones that fit the bill for this.”

JC: “And so, I’m unsatisfied, so far, as we’re going through this exercise together. I’m unsatisfied, so far, that we have figured this out. I’m unsatisfied [that] it’s some sort of other nation’s sub. That would be huge news, man, you know, off the coast of California, you know, within that hundred-mile radius, about fifty miles, that circle begins. So let’s kind of keep going down and see if we can figure this out. But the people that are there, it means something when we can hear from them directly. I’m really grateful I can play these. So, I also want, for these witnesses. I think that it’s important that, you know, the question is asked: Can you talk about this? Can you talk to me about this? Because I think it’s important that people understand, they were never asked to not talk about it. So I just want to play this clip.”

~Audio Begins~

JC: “Did anybody ever tell you, before, during or after that: That’s classified, you can’t talk about it?”

E1: “Nobody explicitly or implicitly said, ‘Never talk about this incident right here.'”

JC: “Nobody ever had you sign a Page 13, or an NDA, saying this is our own black tech, and we tested it on ourselves, don’t talk about this?”

E1: “The opposite. No one said anything about it.”

JC: “No one ever brought up the possibility, ‘Hey, that’s an adversarial drone’?”

E1: “But like, it’s pretty common, like, if something crazy happened, and we think that an adversary has an upper hand, then I could see them saying that.”

JC: “But the point is, that’s not what happened.”

~Audio Ends~

JC: “So I think it’s important that we recognize that I’m just talking to an individual in a way that is very…it’s okay to do that. They were never asked not to talk about it. Is that correct?”

Guts: “Yeah, well, I’m sure, you know, look, people are going to have questions: How are they talking about this without, you know, without catching flack? Because you can talk about it. There’s nothing that they…there’s nothing classified about talking about something that you saw, you know? In this context.”

GK: “You’re here, as an American citizen. First Amendment rights.”

Guts: “Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Both myself, and yeah, surely, you know, these guys, yeah, they’re, again…they happen to be there because of the capacity of their job. But we can talk about it because there’s nothing inappropriate that we’re gonna mention.”

JC: “Most people that have gone on camera with me or done interviews, officially, on record, the reason I can’t put it out is because they’ve asked me not to, because they’re still in their careers. If they’re in real high command, they don’t want it for that reason. If they’ve just starting out in their career, they don’t want it for that reason, a lot of times. So, it’s like, you know, I have to respect that, but at least I’m gathering the information.”

Guts: “Well, it goes back to stigma, too. Again, it’s not accepted everywhere, in all circles, that you can talk about it. And again, if somebody really wanted to pick a bone with these guys, you know, I’m sure they could. But in terms of, you know, no, there’s nothing that they’re…they’re not breaking any rules, you know, by talking about it.”

JC: “So, I’m still unsatisfied that these are just a foreign nation’s drones. So we’re gonna continue down this. This one’s really interesting. This is a new witness, also, from Paul Hamilton, that gave us a number of quotes, talking about drones at sea, in general, on that deployment. Let’s talk about that.”

~Audio Begins~


JC: “So, on one of the videos that I released, our government said that this was evidence of a trans-medium vehicle, something going into the water. One of these objects that you were able to see from your ship, it actually went into the water. Did you see that at all?”

Eyewitness 2 (E2): “I didn’t see anything go into the water like that, if that (video of Omaha sphere possibly going into the wateris actual clear footage from a vessel. At that point, it’s different than what I saw, whenever it goes into the water. But I will say that its movement is exactly why we made the first drone calls and when we were first being dismissed, when we were so adamant that they were drones and how it sort of is flying, and then suddenly stops like that, in a way that even, like a helicopter wouldn’t. And it didn’t seem like it was a very stable hover. And up and down in that same way, and it seemed like it would have that for an (Unintelligible. Maybe, “movement”?) as well. We did have conventional drones flown by adversarial nations and non-adversarial nations, as well, in our vicinity, throughout that deployment. That was why we were initially like, these are not aircraft that we typically deal with or see around here. And we had operated, I can’t tell you, I probably spent four months total at sea in that specific area, and before and after, and hadn’t…I didn’t see anything to that effect, flying with that pattern. And we didn’t see it over the course of the deployment, either, anywhere, so…”

~~~Audio Ends~~~

JC: “So he’s looking at the video from the USS Omaha thermal, and seeing it go into the water. You know, his point was, we saw adversarial, and our own drone technology. This was not that. So what did you get from it?”

Guts: “Yeah, that’s a big deal. Just what you said. You’ve got all these different data points. Okay, I’ve seen that before, I know what that looks like. I’ve seen this before, I know what that looks like. What we saw in 2019, in the summer, that doesn’t match, you know, these other encounters that we’ve had. Known encounters that we’ve had of, ‘Oh, this is drone from so and so.’ And, you know, or, ‘This is our drone.’ And you hear him talk about the movement, right? You know, even as a helo guy, I can tell you, you know, if we’re flying along, and I want to come to a stop, right, and I can hover, it takes time to execute that maneuver. And even if you try and yank and bank and, you know, come to as quick of a stop as you can, there’s still drift, there’s still momentum on the airframe that that drags you along, and it’s not an instantaneous stop. What he’s talking about what they saw, was. Stable hover, you know, following the ship, what have you, and then coming to a complete stop and maintaining a stable hover. I mean, nothing that we fly does that. So, that’s important to keep in mind.”

JC: “So drone just means unmanned. I’ve never been one to argue about that term. That’s a false argument. When we first reported it, it just meant it was unmanned. It doesn’t have like a, you know, a mouse in there. You know, it’s unmanned. What he said that was so important to me is that, we see drones, like, that’s something we deal with. It’s something that our military deals with. None of us are saying that’s not. Like, that is a real issue. This is not that. So we’re trying to figure out what this is. And now it gets kind of interesting, because we’re talking about capabilities of these things. This next piece is how they named them, drone classification, right? So I’m asking: How do you name them drones or whatnot? Let’s hear what this individual has to say.”

~~~Audio Begins~~~

JC: “Why do you think there’s this predisposition to refer to them as drones, or call them that?”

E2: “I mean, based on our understanding, the most reasonable explanation would be some sort of a drone or a UAV. And then you sort of go to the connotation that’s attached with calling them what they actually are, which is an unidentified flying object, a UFO. They are, technically that, but that doesn’t mean that they’re extraterrestrial. Like, that’s the connotation that comes with using that phrase, even though that is the proper phrase for what we saw and what we classified them.”

~~~Audio Ends~~~

JC: “So, he’s talking about classifying these as drones. I have something to add to that, but what would you get from what he just said?”

Guts: “Again, to me, you know, the subject of stigma is so, unfortunately, you know, I think that’s what he’s talking about there. You know, if you call it a UFO, which is what it is, right? It’s an unidentified flying object. There’s a lot of baggage with that. Hell, even UAP, you know?”

JC: “Because it makes people automatically think it’s extraterrestrial or something.”

Guts: “Yeah. Right, right.”

JC: “No one’s saying that.”

Guts: “No one’s saying that.”

JC: “But there’s some sort of stigma.”

Guts: “Absolutely. And, again, to distinguish between, you know, like we talked about before, how, you know, a helo would have to kind of come to a slow stop. And even a drone. It’s not completely instantaneous, you know, coming to a complete stop, like they’re talking about, so. No, it’s just, they’re calling it that because that’s kind of the baseline, you know…”

GK: “You gotta call it something.”

Guts: “You gotta call it something, right? And so it’s a baseline go to, to be able to say, ‘Well, I’ll just call it a drone,’ you know, and move on.”

GK: “And in response to our reports, we’ve seen some other fairly lazy media reports that come out and say, ‘Well, look, here’s the documents, they call them UAVs, they’re drones!’ It’s because you gotta call them something.”

Guts: “You gotta call them something. Just because they’re calling it that, does not mean that that’s what they were.”


JC: “Since I’ve spoken to one of the individuals whose job it was to create the designation that we’re seeing here today, which is UAS, Unmanned Aerial System. And I asked, I said, ‘How do you feel about that designation that you made?’ And this individual said to me, ‘That was my only choice. We need to call them something, and I was told by my command to find what is the current description of what we’re calling an unmanned aerial system.’ I said, ‘Are you are you significantly happy that that was a good determination for what you saw?’ [He said], ‘Absolutely not.’ So it’s just, yeah, you gotta call them something.”

Guts: “It’s a default. You gotta call it something. You can’t write, ‘blank.’ You can’t write, ‘UFO.’ You gotta call it something.”

JC: “Maybe they’ll start calling them UAPs now, I don’t know. So I just wanted to go into why these terms become caught on to, to propagate, when maybe they shouldn’t. Okay, the next one that I wanna go to is, you know, I’m very curious in this conversation about, is this what you consider a conventional propulsion system, right?. So let’s see what they have to say.”

~~~Audio Begins~~~

JC: “Can you tell me a little bit why this doesn’t fit with a conventional drone?

E2: “We were always trying to listen, and we couldn’t really hear anything, which is also different from what we’ve experienced with drones that are in close, as these appeared to be. You would hear something, a lot of the times.”

JC: “Like you would hear rotors, whirling of blades, something like that? Conventional propulsion.”

E2: “Correct. For like, more of a conventional drone, a national (?) drone. It would still have like, a low hum of an aircraft flying, which you would hear.”

JC: “And you don’t recall hearing that from these?

E2: “No.”

JC: “What else, in general, just doesn’t add up with the conventional drone idea?”

E2: “Just in general, we were a good amount off of land, and I’m not sure if I can disclose exactly how far away we were. But it was not a range that a conventional drone should ever be able to traverse, especially for the amount of time that we were seeing these. Nothing we know of can stay out here for that long. The amount of time that we were seeing them was well beyond…I mean, if they flew out there, they would probably need to fly back. So I know that it wasn’t a civilian…it absolutely wasn’t civilian, because there’s nothing available or even that you could modify to do what we saw.”

~~~Audio Ends~~~

JC: “So he’s having problems with just like, the drone classification, because by the proximity to this individual and the people that he was with  – and they’ve had a lot of these experiences, as you’ve heard – they didn’t have the typical sound that you would hear from any of these. And that’s one aspect. And then he’s talking about durational flight, right?”

Guts: “Yeah, it’s a big deal. You know, even on the deck of a ship, you know, you’ve got the wind noise and the waves crashing against the hull and all this and that, from personal experience. I can tell you, you can still hear the whirring of blades or, you know, like he talked about the hum of a drone. You can still hear that cut through the din of all the other noise. That’s one aspect that’s important to keep in mind. They didn’t hear any of that, okay? And, something that’s not mentioned in that clip that I know, guys that I’ve talked to have said, ‘These things got so close to the deck of the ship or to the ship’s superstructure, I could have taken a softball and chucked it out and hit it.’ So that’s close, okay? If something was that close, you would hear it, number one. Number two, just the distance, the sheer distance that these things were being observed out at sea. You know, again. Hell, let’s call it even thirty miles, you know? If a ship is out to sea at thirty miles, that means this thing, at a minimum, had to have flown sixty miles to get there and back to wherever it was coming from, right? Because, like we talked about before, I think we’ve established pretty clearly, it was not coming from the Bass Strait. But again, noiseless and the distances that we were seeing them, or that they were seeing them, encountering them out at sea”.

JC: “So we have noiseless, we have instantaneous motion.”

Guts: “Yeah.”

JC: “We have the idea that they can somehow become trans-medium. All of these things are adding up to like, I’m not…”

GK: “They’re not trackable, too. They appear, they disappear. You didn’t track them coming in.”

JC: “Low observability.”

Guts: “Low observability.”

GK: “You didn’t see where they went or where they came from.”

Guts: “Right, right.”

JC: “Okay, so I’m starting not to believe bad magazines like the New York Post, right? I’m starting to find that the case is not solved yet. Let’s continue (laughs). So this is cool. Another aspect that didn’t kind of add up for me…because everything takes power out there. Wow, I’ve started to hear this a bunch. This individual was witness to what was a spotlight so let’s listen to what they have.”

~~~Audio Begins~~~

JC: “Tell me about the spotlight. I’ve got a lot of reports about this, that were happening at that time.”

Eyewitness 2 (E2): “At one point, one of them shined a spotlight on us, and just generally knowing the strength of the spotlights, I don’t think it could have reached more than, I don’t even know, maybe like a mile, which is very close for something like that to be. With the amount of illumination that we saw, it did seem like they were close. It must have been within that range.”

JC: “The spotlight Do you remember what color it was?”

E2: “White.”

JC: “Did the brightness or the strength of the spotlight surprise you at all?”

E2: “It did, yeah.”

JC: “And why is that?”

E2: “It was just, it was very bright and it was completely unexpected. And this was maybe the third night that we had been seeing these aircraft, whatever they were. And that was not something we had previously experienced.”

JC: “Was this an intermittent thing, did it strobe, was it steady, about for how long?

E2: “It was probably a two-second illumination. It was pretty bright, because on the bridge of a ship, we keep it completely dark so that we can see any light, anything possible at night. It went from pitch black, to very illuminated, very quickly.”

JC: “Interesting.”

E2: “Yeah, so that was a bit jarring, shocking. I’m not sure if that…it should have been longer, if that’s been reported elsewhere. But that definitely happened at least once on my watch and was something we saw.”

~~~End Audio~~~

JC: “So some of these swarms, some of the these individual objects would just light up the ship like a spotlight. And that’s something that we continue to hear.”

GK: “Why does that stand out to you?

Guts: “Well, so, look… Sure, conventional, typical, you know, commercial, off-the-shelf drones, I’m sure they’ve got the capability to have lights on them or whatever, okay? But you got to think of it in the context of this description: A spotlight that he says, you know, it’s pitch black outside, and all of a sudden…in speaking to some of these guys myself, you know, you hear them talk about it, and it’s like, ‘I mean, dude, it was bright as day.'”

JC: “He was surprised by how bright…”

Guts: “Surprised at how bright it was, okay? And then you talk about the duration, you know, because at least two seconds. And again, for someone who’s maybe not familiar, they go, ‘Oh, well it sounds like a flash,’ right? Like the flash of a camera or something. Well, no, the flash of a camera is, I mean, almost instantaneous, right? Shuttering on and off. A two-second illumination for that large of a light, illuminating that size of ship, as bright as they said it was, that’s just so not typical of something that we would encounter, regardless of drones in the area. I mean, for your ship to be illuminated like that…I don’t know, a flare of some sort would have to be used. But even that’s like, you know.”

JC: “We keep hearing this. It’s like people will hold their hands out in front of their face and not be able to see their hands. It’s so bright. So whatever this is, has high power and it’s not being, it’s not being, umm. It’s brazen!”

Guts: “Yeah. It’s brazen, and the other thing you gotta remember, it takes energy to be able to produce that strength of light, right? So now we’re talking about a drone that can fly tens of miles out to sea, on its own, stay on duration for hours at a time. It’s noiseless, okay? It’s performing maneuvers that are just, you know, almost unbelievable. And now it’s got a spotlight, so it’s got even more energy now to be able to produce a spotlight for, you know, for two, three seconds to illuminate an entire Navy warship like that? It’s really not adding up to what people would think.”

GK: “It would be incredibly disconcerting that these are unknown craft, small, maneuverable, they can come in and out of the water, and then it’s messing with you. It lights up the whole bridge of the ship., That’s scary. But you’ve heard other incidents like this.”

Guts: “Oh, no. Yeah. And it’s not the first time that an object has illuminated a Navy…in fact, on another deployment, somewhere in the world, this time on a much bigger ship, an LHD (Landing Helicopter Dock), which for someone who doesn’t know, it’s kind of like a…when you look at it, it looks like an aircraft carrier, but it’s not as big. But it’s a kind of a mini-aircraft carrier. Big, big ship, though, okay?”


071004-N-1189B-005 Gulf of Aqaba (October 4, 2007) – MV-22 “Ospreys” from Marine Medium Tilt-rotor Squadron 263 prepare for flight on the flight deck of the multipurpose amphibious assault ship USS Wasp (LHD 1). Wasp is currently on surge deployment to the Middle East carrying the Osprey to its first combat deployment. U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Zachary L. Borden (NON RELEASED)


Guts: “And no, some sailors that I’ve spoken to, personally, they talk about being out on deployment, in the middle of the night, they’re standing bridge watch. And all of a sudden, you know, on the horizon, they see a light, kind of flicker on, and all of a sudden, start tracking towards the ship. And then as soon as they lose sight of the object over the ship, presumably, directly over the head of the ship, all of sudden, it casts this light, that again, is, like Jeremy mentioned, is so bright, and so blinding that they’re disoriented within the bridge of the ship. Because again, it’s at night, it’s pitch black outside. We keep the ship bridge dark at night on purpose to preserve your night vision, right? And then a huge spotlight that just illuminates everything, whereas if it were daytime. And this particular case, it wasn’t two seconds. It was enough time for the sailor to, you know, they talked about being so disoriented that they’re kind of putting their hands up. That’s what she talks about. She goes, ‘My hands were in front of my face and I couldn’t see. It was so bright, I couldn’t see my own hands in front of my own face.’ And they talked about being so disorientated, they’re kind of like getting their bearings and putting their hands up on the consoles to kind of brace themselves, you know, in the bridge of the ship. And then, (snaps his finger) boom, it just shuts off like that.

JC: “The object came in and…she was so great about it, she’s like it, ‘It left at a different speed in which it came in.’ Because what happened was, it hovered, shot the light, and then (snaps fingers), zoom, gone. It’s just interesting.”

Guts: “Again, it just speaks to the unconventional nature of this encounter and others that we’ve had.”

GK: “Hopefully I’ll get one of those next Christmas, Jeremy, I can get one of those drones. These are super-duper drones (JC and Guts laugh).”

JC: “It’s so hilarious that people keep trying to dismiss it that way. And remember, you said small a second ago. Remember, we know the size. I mean, these were significant, physical objects. I’d say ten to fourteen (feet) is the best estimate from each person with the data. We might even know a little bit more about the Russell soon. So, no matter what the shape, or what these vehicles were, they were substantial. But we really got into, right now, what people are saying, is that the ship called the Bass Strait launched, you know, these objects, these units, okay? And that’s been now propagated, and it is 100% false and I want to hear from somebody who has direct knowledge of this. And that’s why this is the next little bit of audio. One of the duties of this person was to monitor the Bass Strait in real time. And let’s see what this person has to say.”

~~~Audio Begins~~~

JC: “I want to talk about origin. There’s been a lot of talk that these objects,, if not launched from land, that they were launched from a merchant vessel. So the Bass Strait is…a lot of people are trying to pin this on the Bass Strait. Can you tell me a little bit about that, about origin, and what you know about the Bass Strait?”

Eyewitness 2 (E2): “This was the closest that we ever came, on our ship, to figuring a possible origin outside of coming from land somehow. Like you said, traversing those thirty to fifty miles that we were from the nearest islands. So, at one point, we did see what look like multiple-air contacts around a merchant ship that was operating in our vicinity of our strike group. And it was a foreign-flagged merchant ship and we reached out to them. They denied. They weren’t a vessel of interest that we had been worried about or anything. But, I think it was like five to ten of the aircraft circling around it and we never saw it actually land on this vessel.”

JC: “Was it your impression that the contacts did not belong to the merchant vessel? And can you verify that you asked the merchant vessel and they denied that they were theirs?”

E2: “Yeah, I can verify the latter, for sure. And that was also why I sort of skirted around saying many details about that merchant vessel because I’m not sure where the investigation went afterwards. I sort of helped compose the message that we sent off, because I’d seen it and like I said, we didn’t see them land on it. And that was what we really wanted to see. Like, we really wanted to see either a launch or a landing. We didn’t know if possibly this vessel had a foreign nation’s intelligence detachment on board or something like that, doing this. They did deny they were the source and they also never landed or launched them, so. We really wanted to see that because we just wanted an answer because we were tired of it. It was not launching, it was not receiving the drones as much as we wanted it to. We were like, ‘This is the source. This has to be it, we finally figured it out.’ And it seemed like it probably wasn’t, just based on the fact that we never saw them land or take off.'”

~~~Audio Ends~~~

JC: “Why is this important?”

Guts: “You know, and again, this kind of goes back to the, you know, the warfighter in all of us, you know? Like, you’ve talked about before, you know, you’ve spoken to folks who, you know, they’re not happy with how this unfolded, you know? We’re out there, we’re trying to do our job, and yet we’re getting peppered, almost like we’re in a boxing ring getting jabbed. Getting jabbed, getting jabbed, getting jabbed, and we can’t punch back. And so, finally, like, you hear, and I can commiserate with that feeling of almost, not helplessness, but just frustration that you’ve got a job to do, we’re all trained warfighters to defend the country, but each other and our ship, right? And we’re getting harassed by these damn things. And finally, we see, ‘Oh, okay, aha! There’s the culprit right there, and we’re gonna query the hell out of them and tell them to knock it off or whatever the case is,’ right? And what do you hear that guy say? He goes, ‘So we finally see them there. And we wanted it so bad for it to be the source of our frustrations over these past few nights,’ and not once did they see anything either land or take off from this merchant vessel. So, it just speaks to the…I feel bad a little bit, you know, because I can hear and I can feel and I can commiserate with the frustration expressed.”

JC: “He wanted an answer.”

Guts: “He wanted an answer! You know, he wanted an answer, and it’s almost like, you know, you’re harassed by these things for so many nights in a row, and finally, you think you’ve got that answer and then, the carpet’s pulled from underneath you, you know, and it’s not.”

JC: “So the big thing for me is that people can just make up any shit they want and they can publish it, and it starts to be trickled down as truth through tabloids, all the way to Wikipedia, and it’s bullshit. And it’s direct bullshit. And knowing that, is one thing. You (Knapp) and I will know certain things, but getting somebody who’s there, whose job it was to watch the Bass Strait, make sure it was not the source of these. Now we finally have that person on record, verified, that was his duty, and he, sadly, can’t report to us that this was some sort of adversarial drone being launched off this ship. Which, of course, it wasn’t, with over a hundred, in a hundred-mile radius, right? That never made sense. This excuse, that, case closed, never made sense. But to get it through, you have to hear from people directly there.”

GK: “We also know that there was further investigation, that the Bass Strait was in port when this was still going on. That it was not responsible for launching what was buzzing around these ships.”

JC: “So you and I have already reported on that numerous times, and now let’s just give it one more go. Which is that we have direct information and knowledge of who and how the Bass Strait was investigated, after the day of events, and they were determined not to be the place of origin, landing or launch of these hundred-plus units in the hundred-mile radius. So guess what? Case open and now we have to kind of think a little bit further. But just to kind of show that this individual can talk to us about it, I just wanna play one last little quote.”

~~~Audio Begins~~~

JC: “Did anybody ever say to you, ‘Don’t talk about this. This is a black project, we’re testing our own technology. We don’t want people to know about it. Don’t talk about it’?”

E2: “No, I’ve never been spoken to, really, about the event, until now.:

JC: “No one ever had you sign an NDA or a Page 13? No one ever gave you a verbal order, direct or indirect, or otherwise that you can’t talk about it. Is that correct?”

E2: “Correct.”

~~~Audio Ends~~~

JC: “So why are we doing that? Just to make sure everybody understands, this is not like some off-the-record kind of, like, you know, he can talk to me, this is absolutely fine. But it’s so much clearer that I’m really grateful that some people are letting us, you know, share this with the public and whatnot. So, George and Guts, is this case closed, have we figured this out?”

Guts: “No, in my opinion, absolutely not.”

JC: “Right, right.”

GK: “No, we don’t know all the central questions: Whose they were, who was operating them, where they came from, where they went to, what their total capabilities are? These are not any kind of drones or AAVs or UASs that we are aware of, that our military’s aware of, so all the big questions about them are still unanswered. It is not a case closed, it is not a case explained, it is an ongoing mystery.”

JC: “So the great UFO swarms of 2019 still need to be investigated. No answers have really been given, in a way. Now the thing that really takes it and elevates it for me is the performance. When you talk with the people that were there, you know, regardless of shape, we’ll get down to the nitty gritty of that maybe when there’s more information that comes out. Although, the idea of it, is that these had performance capability that I hope, I wish, that we had as a country, but this is not a performance capability that anybody has ever seen before and this is what really makes it interesting to me. A mystery.”

GK: “2019 was a big year for a variety of reasons. We haven’t even talked about what started us down this road, is that, on the East Coast. So, Oceania, this gigantic Naval Air Station. I reported in 2018, I had been hearing from Naval aviators and sources that they weren’t flying out of Oceania into the w-72, which is the training area in the ocean. And every single day they were seeing these unknowns, and it was a legitimate security issue, aviation-safety issue, because they’re flying along and there they are. And the Navy, the UAP Task Force, what became the UAP Task Force, is trying to encourage these aviators to go ahead and report it. And I know, when I said it in 2018, I don’t think anybody believed me, that they were seeing them every day, but it was true, and it came out later.”

JC: “Right, it sounded like too much, but then you turned out to be correctly reporting the information.”

GK: “So in 2019, at the urging of some Navy officials who were working on the UFO investigation, UAP investigation, some aviators finally went along with the program and took some pictures. They had a cell phone and they took some pictures. And on one flight, this one crew captured images of three different objects. And they don’t look like the Starship Enterprise. They’re odd looking. One of them, the Navy called it ‘The Acorn.’ Other people, after I put the image out, they tried to call it a Batman balloon, It was not a balloon. It was not a balloon, And they call it The Acorn.”

The Acorn – via MysteryWire.com


The Acorn – via MysteryWire


GK: “Then there was one that just looked like a sphere.”

The Sphere – via MysteryWire.com


The Sphere – via MysteryWire.com


GK: “And then the third one that was labeled ‘Metallic Blimp with Payload.'”

Metallic Blimp – via MysteryWire.com


Metallic Blimp – via MysteryWire.com


GK: “And again, they didn’t have amazing characteristics like the ones on the West Coast, but they would sit there for days at a time, right off the coast, obviously doing some kind of surveillance of the training exercises and the base itself. And it was disconcerting to the Navy that they would sit there. They could sit there for days at a time, at 30,000 feet in 120-knot winds, and not move!”

JC: “That’s what something that Lieutenant Ryan Graves has brought up and other people that actually have dealt with this issue is, the durational capability is astonishing. Look, this is somebody’s technology, and I’m certainly not pretending to know. I don’t know if these UFOs are from another world, another planet, extraterrestrial. I’ve never said that. I don’t know.

GK: “I got these images, by the way, at a briefing, two months later. And I sat on them because I didn’t think I was authorized to do it. And then people started talking about it in public, the Batman balloon, and I figured, well, I went back to the sources [to] see if I could make it public and did. And, you know, that was sort of our first foray into what became a heck of a year reporting because that led then to the West Coast videos and images that we got. And at the same time, East Coast, West Coast, far, far away, at the same general timeframe, in that same year, there was another incident that you guys know pretty well.”

JC: “Yeah, let’s talk about that. Right before we hit that, I just want to say now, so that people are aware that this will be coming out with us: There were other swarm events of UAPs, whatever you want to call them, UFOs, that happened also on the East Coast and also around the world, other seas. This is something that I have direct knowledge of and we’re going to break that story. We just want people to grasp this 2019. Hey, don’t just, you know, believe these tabloids stuff, get in there a little bit, here’s more information. There’s a lot more to this story and this type of event series. But I like where you’re going with this conversation.”

GK: “This is a really disturbing incident that we got ahold [of] before anybody knew about it and it was reported, and then just dropped, and ignored. It’s in Guam.”

JC: “That is true. And I found out that my buddy over here (Guts), was there. So I think that you’re probably the best person to speak about what we’re talking about.”

Guts: “Yeah, so you had reached out to me about an incident that you’d become aware of , and yeah…”

JC: “You see how he’s already…he doesn’t proactively tell me, ‘Hey, man, I heard about UFOs.’ It’s like, I have to find out the story, and then I’d be like, ‘Hey, man, can you tell me, did anything like this happen?'”

Guts: “Yeah, so in terms of stuff that I’ve seen, and people like to ask me all time, ‘Have you seen anything?'”

JC: “Yeah, that’s what I want to know. Have you [seen] anything?”

Guts: “Let me start off by saying this: Yeah, sure, there have been things that I’ve seen flying, certainly at night you know, on NVDs, on Night-Vision Goggles, that, you know, lights that you see that are kind of weird and unexplainable, but nothing that I would consider the mothership, you know? Certainly nothing like you’ve heard.”

JC: “Just things you can’t explain.”

Guts: “Yeah, just things you can’t explain that definitely make you scratch your head, but then you’ve got a mission to do and you go and do the mission. Unfortunately, you don’t have a whole lot of time to investigate, and we’re not UFO hunters, as much as we might want to be.”

JC: “You’re not, maybe I am (JC & Guts laugh)! Come on, man!”

Guts “So we’re out there, I’m out there in Guam, [and] there’s a Navy squadron stationed out there on an Air Force base, and we had become aware of an incident that…or incidents, I should say, that had occurred over a span of a few nights, over a particularly sensitive area on Guam.”

JC: “Why is it sensitive?”

Guts: “Well, out on Guam, they’ve got a – and this is public knowledge. I’m not disclosing anything here – there’s what’s called a THAAD missile battery out there. I think it’s Terminal High Altitude Air (It’s Area. ~Joe) Defense system, I think is what it is.”

Pic from https://www.lockheedmartin.com


Guts: “I think the Air Force and the Army, it’a an Army/Air Force, jointly run…”

GK: “Anti-missile technology?”

Guts: “Yeah, exactly. So it’s defense capabilities, right? And I think that’s all I’m comfortable to say beyond that. But nonetheless, it’s a defense system that we have. Guam, in and of itself, has been a strategic military location going back to World War Two. So there’s a THAAD missile battery out there, missile-defense site out there. Well, in early 2019, our squadron was approached by the Air Force because what had been told to us was that there had been these, I guess you call them incursions, of lights, over the THAAD site, okay? And what really kind of struck all of us in the squadron, you know…because we hear about this thing, lights, and everybody right away starts talking, ‘What the hell, what do they want us to do here? What are they talking about?’ Well, what was interesting, [and] what we would talk about in the wardroom was, again, the witness descriptions of these particular lights, okay? And what they were seeing was…the guys that are standing guard duty out there, were seeing, first what started as a light that just all of a sudden appears on the horizon, okay? They described it as coming in at treetop level. And all of a sudden, it starts approaching their position, okay? Again, coming from over water, because, you know, Guam’s an island, surrounded by water. So really, any direction that it’s coming from is coming from over water. But in the particular direction it was coming from, yeah, it’s coming from over water. Treetop level, and it’s approaching their position. And just as they’re starting to get on the radio to kind of start communicating with one another about, ‘Hey, do you see this light? Where’s it going? We need to figure this out.’ It blinks out. Well, it blinks out and then about two, three seconds later, it all of a sudden, pops up (snaps his fingers) over here. You know, ninety degrees offset from the original direction. So if you can imagine a light seen at your 12 o’clock position, it blinks out, and then a few seconds later, it pops up at your nine o’clock position. Is it the same light? Is it a different light? How did it move from here to there so quickly?”

JC: “This troubling because this is a very restricted area…”

Guts: “Oh, this is a very sensitive…100%, a restricted airspace. Even us as the helicopter squadron stationed on Guam, there’s what’s known as a TFR: a Temporary Flight Restriction. Well it’s not temporary, it’s always out there. It’s a constantly-active TFR, where you are not allowed to fly within a certain radius of this area. Mainly for the emissions that are getting radiated out of this site. It can mess with your electronics, it can mess with…at least, certainly, our systems in the helicopter.”

JC: “So like, if somebody had set-up, like a, you know, a commercial drone to do surveys, just the energy output of this area would would mess with those, likely?”

Guts: “Presumably. I mean, that was the reason why we were never allowed to fly in and out of there. And also, you know, you can never determine when a missile would be shot off, and so, God forbid, you don’t want to be in the fire zone of this thing, in case you’re flying through. So we always had to skirt around this thing and fly around it, We always knew where it was and we always made sure to stay outside of this.”

JC: “Okay, so this is a big deal. There’s something being flown in this restricted airspace.”

Guts:: “Yeah, it’s a big deal.”

JC: “And it’s weird because you’ll see a light, and then immediately, at a 90-degree…”

Guts: “Well, so what ended up happening over a couple nights in early 2019 was…these guys were essentially involved in a cat and mouse chase with these lights, okay? And the guys on the ground, over the THAAD site. It’s funny, you know, similar to 2019 (West Coast ~Joe), they’re getting harassed by this thing. They can’t figure out where it’s coming from, they can’t figure out where it’s going. So they enlisted our help in trying to figure out what these things were. The Air Force didn’t have any rotary-wing assets out there to be able to…they didn’t have any helicopters out there to be able to chase these things, but they knew we were out there. And so they said, ‘Hey, Navy, can you guys help us out here? We want you guys to…’ What we ended up doing was, after three or four nights of harassment, they finally got fed up and said, ‘You know, we need you  guys to help us out.’ What they asked us to do was stand up what’s called an alert, right? So, we’re at the end of our flight day, whatever it happens to be, we had a crew, specifically designated every night, to stand this alert, where, if we got a call, they would want us to launch and try and find these things, right? And just essentially observe and report. Really, their desire would be to eventually knock it down, if we could, but we didn’t have any of that sort of technology on the helicopter at the time. And so, that’s really what it was. It was stand up an alert, if we get the call, go and see what you can find out.

“And sure enough, there were a couple times that we were given the call. And in fact, there was one night where me and my crew and the other helicopter that we were flying with, we were doing training out in the southern end of the island, and it’s the end of a long night and it’s about ten or eleven o’clock at night. We’re heading back to the base on the north end of the island, which is next to the THAAD site where these incursions had been happening. And it just so happened that we were out there at the same time that they got one of these calls. They go, ‘Hey, they’re back. The lights are back.’ [We say], ‘Okay, what do you want us to do?’ [They responded], ‘Well, just, you know, they’re over here and we want you to go check it out.’ But again, all the while, maintaining…we’re staying clear of that radius, of that TFR that’s always out there. And I wish I had more of a dramatic account to talk about, but long story short, we go up there to try and find these things, and we couldn’t see them. The guys on the ground insisted that, ‘Hey, they’re right over here. Okay, now they’re over here.’ Again, this cat and mouse game going back and forth. Well, we never saw anything, we never saw anything with our eyeballs, we never saw anything on our night vision goggles. We never saw anything on our FLIR, that we have on the helicopter, Forward-Looking Infrared. We never saw anything.”

JC: “You should have been able to see these objects?”

GK: “On sensor systems.”

Guts: “On some thing, if you were to… Again, the guys on the ground were so emphatic that they were seeing these things, you would think that we should have been able to see something, but we never could. That flight was not the only flight where we launched on these things. There were other crews, other nights that got launched. And again, it was always in the middle of the night. The earliest it ever happened was maybe ten, eleven o’clock at night. but typically it was around one, two, three in the morning. So…yeah, we had other crews get called up and get the call to launch. They would fly out there, chase this thing around, or try to, anyway, but we never saw anything.”

GK: “Around the world, as I’ve reported, there have been instances of UFOs that have been over missile sites, including nuclear missile sites, American, Russian. And they’ve interfered with the launch-control systems. There have been dramatic incidents where it’s direct interference.”




GK: “Is there anything like that that happened with this THAAD system, or could you even say?”

Guts: “Not that I’m aware. But even if I was aware, I don’t think I would be comfortable talking about that. But not that I’m aware.”

GK: “But the fact that whatever this unknown surveillance system, if that’s what it was, was taking such an interest in that facility? It’s a critical…”

Guts: “Yeah, because there’s, you know, if you look at Guam, there’s multiple bases throughout the island, right?. You got an Air Force Base to the north end where we flew out of, there’s a Navy base in the south. In fact, there’s even a submarine base on the southern end of the island that subs go in and out of. So, there’s multiple…I mean, there’s other high-sensitive units and platforms in and around…”

GK: “But it was all there.”

Guts: “But it was always, all there.”

U.S. Territories, including Guam – via Geology.com


GK: “Again, just to characterize it: Guam is such a critical, national security facility but it’s like the frontier, it’s like Fort Apache. You’re the first line of defense if bad actors from that region of the world fire something this way.”

Guts: “Yeah, absolutely.”

JC: “I think we’re dealing with a lot of different truths, right? There are incursions of…even just, you know, drones with tape on, you put on some weaponry, and you fly it into a base. That happens all the time. You know, I have individuals that I know, their job is to defend certain bases, from that, when they’re overseas. A buddy of mine, at twenty-three miles away, was able to target in, using an aerostat with a thermal camera. It’s like, basically, a floating platform, weapons platform. And at tweet-three miles away, it was able to disable a drone, instantaneously.”

Guts: “Wow.”

JC: “There’s apparently no issue that we have. There’s Return to Sender, which sends the bomb back. So, we are dealing with that. That is something we will increasingly deal with when it comes to our technologies. However, we have to really say that the things we’ve been talking about, they don’t fall within those explanations. In fact, they kind of mimic what has been going on with the UFO phenomenon, you know, since the beginning of our military. This is not a new thing. Pyramids, spheres, cubes and cigars are the common shapes of UFOs, and these have been seen by our military throughout the entire time. And that’s just something you (Knapp) and I know through all of the information that we’ve had. So I just…I think that we have to be very careful to dismiss things because these new techs are coming up and it’s so easy to call it something that’s, you know, it has a certain type of maneuverability as a commonplace thing. So I’m really grateful that we were able to kind of, in my eyes, unsolved the case. It was bothering me (laughs).”

GK: “Let me ask…this is like, call this weapons porn. But I had a question about, you know, me as a civilian, I’m thinking: They’re flying over our ships, over our bases, shoot those damn things down. And I was thinking about this Navy-weapons system, I’ve seen video on YouTube. It’s almost like a super Gatling gun, that is an anti-aircraft system. I don’t know what it’s called.”


JC: “High-energy beam weaponry.”

GK: “Well, I was thinking of the guns that shoot like a thousand bullets in a minute that would just, basically, knock down a missile.”

Guts: “Okay. CIWS, a close-in weapon system. So basically, it looks like an R2-D2-type thing on it, yeah.”

GK: “So that could clearly take one of these things down (Guts laughs), shouldn’t it?”

Guts: “Yeah. Again, look, I’m not a CIWS expert, I’m not a Surface-Warfare Officer. I’m sure we could easily find someone to talk on that. But, presumably, yeah, I mean, in theory, yeah, you got something that’s flying around your airspace and you don’t want it to, there are ways to take those things down.”

GK: “Just thinking, at some level, there are investigations into this UAP mystery, we know, and some of them are sincere and people are there who want to get to the bottom of it. And some that just sort of wanna cover it over and wallpaper it, and make it go away, I think. But, you gotta think that there’s people in the Navy, and maybe the Air Force, that are sitting around thinking, ‘These damn things keep flying over our bases, we sure would like to shoot one of those down and see what the hell it is. Don’t to think?”

Guts: “My opinion? Yeah, it’s frustrating. You know, especially again, with that warfighter mentality, you know, you want to be able to punch back. You know, if you’re getting just peppered in the ring and not able to throw a counter punch, it’s frustrating.”

GK: “And then you gotta worry, well, do we set off an international incident, or more importantly, an interplanetary incident? We shot down Meep Thorp from Krypton or something like that (Guts laughs).”

JC: “I wanted just to, also, thank you for talking with us, and I just want to kind of hit the nail on the head here, which is that: I mean, you’re my friend and I like calling you and telling you some of the stuff that I’m learning and passing it by you, and it’s exciting. I appreciate that part of our friendship.

Guts: “Sure.”

JC: “I do, you know, have concerns, though. I mean, you know…or I did for you. Like, you’re an active commander in the Navy and there’s stigma associated with talking about this. And I know we’re just talking right now, you know, everything we’re seeing is personal opinion, right, between us. But do you have any kind of concern that that stigma would affect you or that there’d be any reprisals because you’re talking about this with us? I mean, it’s a hot topic right now, within our Department of Defense, is UFOs, UAPs. Just as an individual, you’re talking with us, but do you have any concern?”

Guts: “You’re talking about blowback or something like?”

JC: “Yeah, explain it to me.”

Guts: “No, no, no, no, no. Look, not at all, man.

JC: “You’re immune to the…”

Guts: “Yeah, no, well, look, it’s not that…look, it’s like this: The stigma is real. I think conversations like this help to fight and reduce that stigma, which hopefully would encourage folks if they do have some sort of, you know, weird encounter, would report it, right? And bring it up to somebody who can try to get it up the proper chain of command.”

JC: “Through the proper chain of command and stop calling me (Guts laughs). No, no, I want people to.”

Guts: “But no…look, I’m not afraid…look, part of my part of my training as a helicopter pilot was also that as an aviation safety officer, okay? And for those of us that have been through that course…there’s a lot of courses in the military that they send you through, you know? Some more robust than others, some more menial than others, and there’s a lot of real dry topics out there. But this one in particular, the aviation-safety-officer course, for me, anyway, it really changed…we’re always safety conscious, you know, we always try and do things as safe as possible. But man, going through that course really kind of drives home the point of aviation safety, looking out for your brothers and sisters in the air, mitigating risks as much as you can, and making sure that at the end of the day, you know, you go out over the horizon [and] you come back with everyone that you left with. And so, that course in particular really, really drove home the point of, hey, when there’s an issue, when there’s an aviation-safety concern that puts your fellow brothers and sisters in harm’s way, you gotta deal with it.

“And to me, I see this UAP issue in general, in the same light. There is an aviation-safety-flight concern. It should be addressed. We shouldn’t be afraid to talk about it just because it’s a little weird or it’s unknown, or we don’t know what the hell it is.”

GK: “It’s a national-security issue.”

Guts: “It’s a national security issue. We shouldn’t let that…because of its inherent and weird nature, we shouldn’t bar that from trying to figure out what this is. Again, if for nothing else, for the safety of those that that we send up…people who put their lives on the line every day to go up and defend the country. So no, in terms of blowback? No, look, I’m not doing this on behalf of the Navy, by any means, but in general, it’s what they trained me to do.”

GK: “We’re getting close to the end here. I just give props to the U.S. Navy for being so forthright on this, for leading the charge.”

Guts: “Yeah. yeah.”

GK: “I mean, you know, you and your colleagues talking about…and I know a career Navy guy (Jay Stratton. ~Joe) who was part of AAWSAP and AATIP and the UAP Task Force. He has led the charge towards changing Navy policy to encourage aviators to come forward. So glad, that somebody is doing it because, you know, as we’ve remarked, some of the other services are not so…are a little more reluctant to get involved.”


Guts: “I’m proud. I’m proud of the service I’m in, I’m proud of the career I’ve had. I mean, I’m not done. I’m proud I get to do the work I get to do and I’m glad that the Navy is, you know, seems like they’re taking steps to address these issues.”

JC: “Well, I’m glad that you’re, you know, willing to have the conversation. We made the joke back and forth, it’s like, if we were both into chess and we just wanted to talk about that, that’s no problem. But, for some reason, this this idea of like…UFOs have been with us forever, this idea that unknowns. Why can’t we just talk about it like we would any other subject?”

Guts: “Right.”

JC: “So that’s what we’re doing. We’re doing what we’re hoping other people will do.

Guts: “Yeah.”

JC: “I do gotta say, though, that, you know, it’s great…so the Navy has really spearheaded coming forward, and we see so much progress. We see this whistleblower legislation that has just, you know, created this opportunity for people to come forward about the UFO topic, who work inside and that kind of thing. So you see all this progress being made, but I was so disappointed when they did the hearings. Just to be clear, we presented, you know, nine pieces of corroborative evidence. They took that hearing and they just showed one piece and tried to pretend that that was the totality of the 2019 events. That was so disingenuous to Congress.”

GK: “There are those who’d like it to go away, they’d like the media attention to stop, they’d like conversations like this to end. The closer we get to the goodies, the more pushback there’s gonna be. Media and other places.”

JC: “Yeah. Well, thanks so much, man. It was good to hang out and I’m glad we finally got to have this conversation all together.”

Guts: “I appreciate it.”

JC: “Hopefully, it sheds a little light on all this information that we were able to get. And I suspect, there’s going to be more coming from us.”

Guts: “I think so too.”

GK: “Oh yeah.”


© Joe Murgia and www.ufojoe.net, 2018-2023. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Joe Murgia and www.ufojoe.net with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.


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