Skinwalker Ranch

What Did The DIA Scientist See At Skinwalker That Caused Him To Push For AAWSAP?

25 Nov , 2019  

By Joe Murgia – @ufojoe11 on Twitter

Over the past few years, investigative reporter, George Knapp, and filmmaker/researcher, Jeremy Corbell, have given lectures, gone on various radio shows and podcasts and described how the Pentagon’s UFO program, AATIP and it’s relative, AAWSAP, came to be. AAWSAP was first mentioned publicly by researcher Paul Dean, who did some excellent work to come up with the name. The AAWSAP story features a DIA scientist who had an anomalous experience at Skinwalker Ranch. This guy had a hand in creating and then managing AAWSAP. More on that later. First, I want to take a few edited excerpts from Knapp’s lecture at UFO MegaCon on March 20, 2019.

(The name of this DIA scientist is online on various websites and social media. I’ve tweeted his name on a few occasions but was told he wants no part of this. So, when referring to him, I’ll just use his initials (JL).

Knapp at UFO MegaCon:


I made this trip to Washington, D.C. at the invitation of Senator Harry Reid. It was St. Patrick’s Day, 2018 and I already knew a little bit about AATIP and AAWSAP and what they’ve been studying and where the money came from and how the program was created..

I ended up having to meet with Senator Reid and some other people who were directly involved in these programs and they gave me a download. And I thought I knew a lot about these programs when I went there and realized that I only knew a little tiny bit. The purpose of this was to learn about these programs. We all know about AATIP, but in reality, there was something before that.

I sat down for a couple of hours with Senator Reid and other people whose names, they don’t want to be known. They brought me up to speed on how AATIP was created. How its predecessor was under way for a number of years. It coexisted for a long time.

But the story that it told was not the full story. AATIP, that we know about…the AATIP that studies nuts and bolts saucers, cases of UFOs that have encounters with military units such as the USS Nimitz, that is studied by a group of people. Lue Elizondo was the head of it.

It’s not so much a program as it was a loose network of intelligence officials in different agencies, including the Air Force & the Navy, CIA, DIA, DARPA…there might be a couple of other agencies. But a case would come in from any one of their units and it would be shared with this group of people. Analysis would be done. Evidence would be looked at and then stashed in a drawer and nobody ever sees it. It’s not passed up the chain of command.

In 2007, that changed. One of the guys I met with in this meeting in Washington is the one who changed it. He had been in the same position that Lue Elizondo had been in. And his name is just not out there. He grew frustrated with what was happening with the phenomenon and he suspected that UFOs flying around the sky, buzzing our military units every once in a while, is not the full story. Even if you could solve that part of the mystery, it wouldn’t solve the bigger part of the picture.

So he grew interested in Skinwalker Ranch and he had read the (Knapp/Kelleher – “Hunt For The Skinwalker”) book. And after he read it, he called up Bob Bigelow and said…actually, he wrote him a letter and said, “Hey, can I go to the ranch…go look around? I’m with the DIA.” Bigelow says, “Come on out to Las Vegas and I’ll take you there.” And that’s what happened. He flew to Las Vegas. They flew on Bigelow’s jet. They went to the ranch. This guy’s not there fifteen minutes and he has an experience. And I’m not gonna go into detail.

I’m hoping that he’s going to maybe come forward at some point and describe his experience. But it was just for him. Of all the people in this room, in the encounter, he was the only one who could see it. He’s the only one who had an angle on this thing that appeared. And he’s pretending that he’s not seeing it but it’s right out of the corner of his eye. And he doesn’t say anything until he leaves the ranch. And he gets off and he asks Bigelow if he had seen it. And he had not. The other people who had been in the room had not seen it.

He flies back to Las Vegas, goes back to Washington, D.C. and looks up Harry Reid and tells him about it. Now Reid had some experience in these matters that I’ll get into in a little bit. But as a result of that conversation, Reid, who had an interest in UFOs and had maintained that interest over many years – and I can attest to that personally – called in a couple of his friends in the Senate – Daniel Inouye and Ted Stevens. They had a conversation in a secure room and they decided to provide some funding for a much broader study. Something that looked at…beyond flying saucers, that looked at other paranormal aspects…supernatural aspects that we would not normally associate with aliens or ETs. Assuming that that’s what this is, which I’m not sure anyone knows for sure. And that is how AAWSAP was born. The Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application program.

Knapp was on Phenomenon Radio on October 11th, 2018. On that show and another show (which I can’t recall), he included more details related to what this guy (JL) saw. I combined transcripts from the two shows for this excerpt:

It was something that appeared in the air, ten feet away from him, inside a house while he was having a conversation. And it was at such an angle that it was only viewable, of the group that was sitting there, within his line of sight. The thing appeared to him. He was trying to play it cool and not let everybody else know it was there. This guy. He’s a very serious, rock solid, brilliant guy, who had read the book and thought there might be something there of interest to the DIA and the Pentagon and national security. He’s in the main ranch house, hearing some stories from the caretakers who live there and this thing appeared inside the house, in broad daylight. And I’m not gonna get into details but it was pretty distinct and remarkable and it made a very big impression on this guy.

AATIP was the study of occasional encounters that military personnel has with UFOs. And it was an informal organization that existed within the Pentagon. Different departments and different divisions of the military. And they would exchange information. Videos would come in. They’d do analysis and create files and try to figure this stuff out. AAWSAP was created to be something else entirely. It was to look at a much broader range of paranormal activity. The DIA guy and Bob Bigelow and Colm Kelleher and everyone associated with NIDS knew that UFOs do in fact occur in connection with other strange stuff. That as much as ufologists don’t like to admit it, there’s a Bigfoot connection and there is a crop circle connection and there’s a connection to animal mutilations. It’s not clear what the connections were, other than proximity in the same time and place of all those different phenomena. And here you had a ranch where all of this stuff was going on. And that ranch, whatever is there, had in essence given that guy from the DIA an engraved invitation to come back. And he did.

I wanted more details of what this DIA scientist saw as it seemed to play a large role in why AAWSAP came into existence. I listened to more podcasts and lectures and found this Knapp lecture from the May 2018 McMinnville UFO conference:

“He sees this weird ball of light, in the living room where he’s talking to the caretaker.”

A weird ball of light is interesting. But on the September 27th, 2018 episode of Phenomenon Radio, Jeremy Corbell went further:

You get these DIA guys being sent to the ranch. And sure enough, the Phenomenon makes sure that they have an experience. A hands on, direct, personal experience. Let me just give you one, which is the experience that initiated everything. There was an agent, in particular, who went there and as he’s interviewing the people that lived at the ranch, he looks over their shoulder and he sees what looks like a metal, Möbius loop, just presenting itself. Physically, right there. He can see it with his eyes. He doesn’t mention it to the current people who lived at the ranch. And he sees it and it presents itself, even with, I believe some hieroglyphics on them. That was one of the number of personal events by agents of the DIA, that did then say, ‘Something is going on there.’ And then they ended up talking with Robert Bigelow and realized that there is a huge opportunity.

Hal Puthoff, Luis Elizondo & Eric Davis via Davis’ Facebook

These are all the details I had regarding JL and the mobius loop. That was until I started chatting with astrophysicist, Dr. Eric W. Davis. Davis is the Chief Science Officer at Earth Int’l, Inc. and the Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin, which was a subcontractor to Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies (BAASS), which was the contractor on AAWSAP and AATIP. One of his research specializations is breakthrough propulsion physics for interstellar flight. For a full bio of Davis, click here.

He shared details with me about the JL story that he had heard from one of his BAASS colleagues. He also gave me his thoughts on AATIP and AAWSAP.

JL was in the living room of the former NIDS double wide observation trailer/staff quarters. A 3D object appeared in mid-air in front of him and changed shape like a changing topological figure. It went from pretzel-shaped to Möbius strip shaped. It was 3D and multi-colored. Then it disappeared.

AATIP was born out of the ONI’s investigations into the Nimitz encounters with the Tic-Tac UFOs.

Synergy between AATIP and AAWSAP was discovered so the two programs began to coordinate on overlapping areas of interest.

So we reported to Lue as far back as 2008 or 2009.

The ranch was not really central to the AAWSAP because it was a more-than-peripheral side issue.  JL thought it was important enough to include it as part of the UFO field investigations that the contract required BAASS to implement. The major component was to ascertain UFO threat, the weapons used by UFOs that cause medical injuries, develop a predictive pattern to UFO activities to get ahead of them when they appear, predict future advanced military tech that could defend us against UFO attacks (should that happen), find a way to attempt contact with UFOs and start a dialogue (USAF developed an ET contact protocol in the late 1940s), find out who/what UFOs are, etc., etc.

The DIA is an Intelligence agency, so its mission is to discover the UAP’s plans and operations via intelligence collection and analysis to protect the national security. The AAWSAP was to provide data to assist the AATIP’s Nimitz and Roosevelt investigations.


June 14th, 2021 update/transcript on what JL allegedly saw at Skinwalker Ranch. This was taken from George Knapp’s interview with Robert Bigelow, conducted earlier this year.


George Knapp (GK): Things die down on the ranch, you’re in caretaker status, you have security on the property and they continue to collect stories and incidents and things like that. Then a new opportunity comes along, because of the notoriety of the property it gets out there, and a scientist from the DIA contacts you and it starts a new chapter.

Robert Bigelow (RB): Which I didn’t believe him, and he assumed that I wouldn’t believe him, So he said, “Okay, here’s my credentials, here’s who I am. Call me, call and find out.” Which, of course, I did. And sure enough, he was real. He was real and he’s a great guy. He is, just genuinely…I’m glad that our country is able to hire people like him.

George Knapp: He says, “I’m interested in the property, I’d like to go see it” and then he comes out to meet you and you go together?

RB: Yeah, and he had done his homework because he recognized  from the air, in my plane, when we were starting to get close to the ranch. So he had seen aerial photos of some kind about the property and he said, “Oh, we’re getting close.”

GK: So you go there, he meets the property managers, the husband and wife, walks around the property with you, you tell him where things have happened?

RB: Not much of a tour. We were probably on property, George, altogether, maybe forty-five minutes, an hour at the very most. I would say more like forty-five minutes. And he had a customized exhibition for him, by the phenomena. We go inside the manager’s house, which was Terry Sherman’s house, and now it was Gene Richard’s house, and our new managers, because this was much later after Terry and his wife left. And so, we go in there and we sit at their little dining room, off the living room, in the small house and there’s a kitchen over here, too. And so we’re sitting north, south, east, west around the table. And so, the visit’s over and we get back on the plane and [JL] says to me, “When we were sitting there, in the dining room, did you see anything?” And I said, “Well, no because somebody’s sitting here and here and somebody’s sitting here and here, so you have this kind of views going on. You have views this way and views this way, right? Mostly, is what you’re looking. You’re not looking behind you. Somebody across from you is seeing what’s going on behind you, right?” So his perspective was being able to see what was going on behind the person, like you and I are crossing each other right now and I can behind you, what’s going on. And that was his perspective. “No, I hadn’t seen anything,” I told him. And he said, “Okay.” Finally, after a while, he says, “Well, I saw something.” Oh. Well gradually, over days…and he’s loosening up and telling me about what it is that he saw. Well he saw something that was elevated off the floor, wasn’t supported by anything, and it was rotating and it was tubular. And I got this over a period of time cause he wouldn’t fess up and talk about it like it was a state-frigging secret, you know? Well hell, just an observation on the ranch, big deal. You know, we all have these things, tell us what’s going on, you know? But he kept it very close to his vest for quite a long time, for days and days, weeks. And so finally, it was an object, it wasn’t supported by anything.

GK: It was floating in the air.

RB: It was in the kitchen, which was right behind his line of sight, and it was tubular. And there was a rock group that had an album called “Tubular Bells.”

GK: Yeah, Mike Oldfield, yeah.

RB: Okay. And so, that was on the cover, apparently. And he said, “That’s the closest thing I could can come to as to what the structure of this looked like.” George, he was there for forty-five minutes, this thing was customized for him!

GK: It decided it wanted him to see something while he was there.

RB: Yeah, exactly. I mean, we couldn’t have done anything to be more impactful if we tried. If we had tried to concoct something up, there’s nothing that could have been more impactful for him, to be able to see this at close range. This was probably like, oh…maybe eleven feet from him? Ten, twelve feet away at the most, so…close.


November 23rd, 2021 update/transcript on what JL allegedly saw at Skinwalker Ranch. This was taken from George Noory’s, Coast to Coast AM interview with Dr. James Lacatski (formerly referred to as JL) and George Knapp, conducted on October 14th of 2021.


George Noory (GN): What would you say, James, in your moments there, was the most dramatic thing that you came across?

Dr. James Lacatski (JL): That I personally came across? That had to be what I saw at Skinwalker Ranch, when I visited with Bob Bigelow.

GN: Tell us what that was.

JL: Well, as with everything with regard (laughs) to AAWSAP, it was quite distorted through the news. And this is exactly what happened, and it’s not that complex. We went into the ranch manager’s home and sat down. Now, we were having a casual conversation. You know, I’m certainly noticing that there are twelve or more crosses and crucifixes on the wall, and I was thinking, “Hmm, Jim, I wonder if I really should have come here.” But in any case, you know, we’re having a nice conversation and then Bob and the ranch managers went into, I’d best call it a personal finance discussion, which I felt kind of awkward being there. And I kind of went into a daze, you know, just glancing around the room, seeing what’s the lay of the land in the rooms. And then this object appears, floating in the kitchen. Quite distinct. I mean, I looked away from it and it maintained its position and allowed me, I guess, actively allowed me to come back and look at it and examine it more closely. It was not a blurry vision, it was not a speck in my eye. It was there, it was about 18 inches tall, 18 inches wide, floating in the middle of the kitchen. And that kitchen is quite distinct. Its style is 1950s style so the colors of the tiles are quite distinct.

GN: Did it look like it just appeared?

JL: It just appeared. It just appeared and it was very sharp. Now, let me give you an exact description, this Möbius strip and all of this. Take a piece of spaghetti about six inches long. I’m just saying, you know, in practical terms, to form a model of it. Let it wet or boil it and let it drop and start bunching up on itself. But at the very end that you’re holding, allow it to droop downwards, and stick out. Now that was super clear, that portion of it. It was a truncated, it was a solid light yellow and it was surrounded by a different shade of yellow cloud. So, you know, I’m looking at this taking notes of what it looked like and just a few minutes ago, I looked back at my original drawing of it because I wanted to catch the impact. And, as someone, I guess, I noted to someone and they’ve repeated it (Bigelow repeated it to George Knapp), it looked very much like the cover object of Tubular Bells, the album from back, I guess it was in the 80s.

JL: Except it wasn’t chrome, it was yellow, and it was solid. Quite clear and then it got fuzzy as the droopy portion went into the cloud. And that was it. There was nothing that dramatic about it. And that’s when we went into a discussion of, you know, I made the comment, “Well, is this your decorating style?” And Jean said, “Oh, yes, this is my decorating style. Strange, though, but, you know, before you showed up, a cross flew out of the bathroom, horizontally, into the wash basket, on top of the washing machine.” So I’m thinking, “Oh, hmm.” Well that’s when we went back and we went right through where the object was, as we all went back and toured the rest of the house and had further discussions about what was going on there. So it’s not a complex story, but that’s it.

GK: Just add some context to this. Jim only made one visit on behalf of the Defense Intelligence Agency to figure out whether there was a justification for a study. He’s there on the ranch for a short period of time, he has an experience, this thing appears in the air, and only he can see it, it’s just for him. And that site, that event is what led to the creation of the program and convinced him that something was really going on. He went back to Washington, talked with Harry Reid and set this thing in motion, designed the program. He’s being too modest, I think.


August Möbius

Back to JL and his encounter at Skinwalker Ranch. A Möbius loop/strip, discovered in 1958 by August Möbius, a German mathematician and theoretical astronomer, was not something I was familiar with before Corbell mentioned it. If you want a look at what JL might have seen at the ranch, check this out:

And M.C. Escher is known for incorporating the Möbius strip idea of infinity into various pieces of his art. Here’s an animation of his woodcut, “Möbius Strip II.”

For more on the Möbius strip and how it brought about the branch of mathematics known as topology, check out this Smithsonian Magazine article: “The Mathematical Madness of Möbius Strips and Other One-Sided Objects.”

I believe that the Möbius strip would be a well known concept to somebody well versed in math. In this KLAS/Knapp article on AATIP/AAWSAP, Senator Harry Reid referred to JL:

I received communication from a man who worked for one of the defense agencies, a PHD in physics and math. He said ‘I know everything about rockets but I don’t know what these things are,’” said Sen. Harry Reid.

So, as Knapp and Corbell said, the phenomenon at Skinwalker Ranch presented itself at an angle that only JL could see. And as it turns out, it’s something a rocket scientist, well versed in mathematics, would recognize. If that’s what happened, the obvious question is: How did it know to choose something that was geared towards a scientist? And why? Did it know that this event would encourage JL to push for the formation of AAWSAP? Did it want to be studied? Did it want to be hunted? Lots of questions and no answers.

In the end, JL being involved with studying these subjects was detrimental to his career. Luis Elizondo wrote about it in his article on Medium last November.

UAP has even been associated with demons and anti-Judeo Christian beliefs.

I experienced this first-hand during my time working at the U.S. Government’s Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (AATIP), where certain senior government officials thought our collection of facts on Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP) was dangerous to their philosophical beliefs.

In fact, my AATIP predecessor’s career was ruined because of misplaced fear by an elite few. Rather than accept the data as provided by a top-rank rocket scientist, they decided the data was a threat to their belief system and instead, destroyed his career because of it.

I’ll understand if JL never comes forward and shares his story with the world. Seeing the endless conspiracy theories that Luis Elizondo has had to deal with, I can’t blame him for not subjecting himself to the same crap. But I’m still hopeful it may happen one day. His story is vital to understanding what happened.

Was there a deeper meaning for why JL was shown that shape? This may have nothing to with what he saw that day but I’ll leave this with you. It’s from a company that sells Möbius-related products.

On a personal level, the Möbius strip represents a willingness to move WITH the constantly changing cycles in our Life process, transforming our challenges into useful solutions. The Möbius Strip reveals planetary transformation, as well. Historically, there has always been Earth changes, i.e. natural re-structuring of land and ocean masses, tide changes, weather changes, seasonal changes, etc. The Möbius Strip shape is symbolic of eternal change within stillness itself.

The Möbius Strip is an expression of non-duality. It reveals the Unity of all polarities, creating a state of Oneness, joining the whole and the part, the masculine and the feminine, expansion and contraction, spirit and matter, etc. Everything is One and nothing can be separated from anything else. All is completely intertwined, infinitely. The Möbius Strip is a spiritually significant symbol of balance and union. (Yoga=Union) The Buddhist philosophy of Tantrism also is expressed by the Mobius Strip shape. “Tantra” is continuity; the word derived from the root ‘tan’, meaning to extend… extend continuously, to flow, to weave. The continuum is descriptive of the Nature of Reality, by contemporary physicist David Bohm…”a single unbroken wholeness in flowing movement.”

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4 Responses

  1. Jonathan says:

    Want a volunteer to assist in transcribing or what have you?
    Happy to give an hour when I can.

  2. David Haith says:

    Thanks Joe for this fascinating dissection of a story most of us have heard in parts but never in detailed whole.
    Of all the weird happenings recorded at the ranch this Mobius strip apparition was the first I’ve heard of, which could be interpreted as some form of communication.
    And it was aimed specifically at a man who could and did make a difference.
    I think you might have started something…..just watch these loops begin appearing on UFO conference stalls as lapel badges to identify we loopy investigators!

    • admin says:


      Thanks for the comments. Glad you enjoyed it. The ML makes the Phenomenon seem spiritual. Or, at the very least, it was the spirit of a math teacher coming back to haunt the ranch! But it also (allegedly) killed three dogs? If it’s the same source, then what’s that all about?

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