Eric Davis, Wilson/Davis

The Wilson/Davis Documents – Part 4: My Twenty-Three Year Journey – A Document, Miller Time 2020 & Knapp

21 Jun , 2020  


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by Joe Murgia@ufojoe11 on Twitter

On the January 28th, 2018 edition of “Coast to Coast AM” with George Knapp, Dr. Hal Puthoff discussed UFO crashes.

George Knapp: Do you think crashes have happened? Or can you say?

(There was a very long pause from Puthoff before he answered ~Joe)

Hal Puthoff: Detailed proof that crashes have happened would be still a highly classified piece of data.

George Knapp: Well, that’s an answer of sorts.

Hal Puthoff: My opinion is that there are probably at least materials. Now it wouldn’t necessarily have to be a crash of an entire craft but it could be a piece blown off and whatever by a lightning strike or a missile or whatever. So I’m not surprised to find out that there’s discussion and material being available.


A large piece blown off would also be exciting. But what about an entire craft?

Why did Dr. Davis feel the need to expand on what Elizondo said by including “landed UFO technology” in his statement to James Iandoli?

On April 24th, 2004, eighteen months after the meeting between Wilson and Davis, biochemist Colm Kelleher, PhD., was the guest on Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.


Art Bell: Colm, I’m forced to ask you, do you believe…does NIDS believe, that the military has had contact with aliens?

Dr. Colm Kelleher: Contact with aliens?

Art Bell: Contact with aliens, yes.

Dr. Colm Kelleher: We have had information over the last several years that seems to indicate that, certainly, pieces of technology have been recovered. Now, I don’t think that actually meets the question that you just asked.

Art Bell: It gets close. But in other words, we may have recovered craft or technology that we have back engineered. I mean, if we have ours and theirs in the sky…

Dr. Colm Kelleher: Yeah.

Art Bell: ….and there’s any relationship, then it’s an obvious question. Either they gave us technology…either their technology crashed, we back engineered it, or one of the above.

Dr. Colm Kelleher: Well, a lot of the lines of evidence that we’ve had and we’re really talking about whispered conversations kind of thing, seems to suggest that there is technology [that] has been recovered but, you know, there’s definitely is not a smoking gun from that perspective.


“Whispered conversations.” In a car in Las Vegas? Dr. Davis, Dr. Puthoff, Dr. Green, Dr. Kelleher, Dr. Mitchell and Senator Reid all had a connection to the Robert Bigelow-run, National Institute of Discovery Science (NIDS), which operated from 1995 to 2004 and investigated all types of paranormal subjects, including UFOs and consciousness. Dr. Green was the first chairman of the NIDS Scientific Advisory Board (SAB) but Dr. Puthoff later took over that position. Dr, Mitchell was part of the SAB but by October of 2002, there was no SAB so he had no title. He was Dr. Ed Mitchell, independent, consciousness science researcher. Dr. Davis had been Director of Aerospace Physics and Astrophysics but his position was terminated in April 30, 2002. By the time October 16th, 2002 rolled around, he was founder/CEO/Chief Scientist of his own company, Warp Drive Metrics (that’s the address on Will Miller’s letter), and was doing advanced concepts study projects for AFRL, Edwards AFB, CA. I think there’s a good chance Dr. Kelleher, who was still the Deputy Administrator of NIDS at that time, and the others may have been aware of what Davis learned in the meeting with Wilson since they had that bond from NIDS. But that’s speculation.


Are There Authentic Documents That Deal With Crash Retrievals?

So far, all we have are stories. Until we get see an intact craft or a large piece of one, the jury will still be out for most people on whether any of this is true. A legitimate government document discussing crashed UFOs would help a lot.

On the January 28th, 2018, Coast to Coast AM show with George Knapp. Dr. Hal Puthoff gave us a major clue.

Dr. Hal Puthoff: “There has been one leaked document – how it got leaked, I’ll never know – which is out there, that talks about some crashes that we were able to verify what was a real document.”

During Dr. Puthoff’s lecture on February 8th, 2020, in West Virginia, a member of the audience tried to get more information.

Q: Back in early 2018, you had done an interview with George Knapp. And it was just an hour interview so I know time was really short. And in it, you really, briefly discussed – and I’m gonna have to paraphrase – that there was a document that was leaked that pertained to crashes or crash retrievals. And I think you’d said something like…you didn’t know or you would never know how this got released. For some of us that are like, keenly interested in that area, can you give us any hints that point to that document, or where to look, since it is leaked and it is out? I wouldn’t ask you to reveal anything that is still classified.

HP: “This is a question about a discussion, in fact, I guess I even mentioned it on an interview with George Knapp, about a document leaking…that verified that there were in fact crash retrievals. I know it’s out there on the Internet some place. I’m not sure where. And so, I don’t know where you could go look for it”

I asked around, was given a date and told to look at Jacque Vallee’s “Forbidden Science Volume 4.” On Page 453 on the Kindle version, I found it.

“Ten years later the existence of a real Intelligence committee called MJ Twelve was revealed when a previously-classified ‘Special Estimate of the Situation’ surfaced. Dated 5 November 1961, it mainly dealt with the threat from nuclear-powered Russian space devices, but it also mentioned the possibility of nuclear material aboard crashed unidentified devices.


Documents are not my strong point by any stretch of the imagination. For now, people will have to make up their own minds and do their own analysis. It contains two spelling errors (“intellegence” and “Israelies”) and uses the word “parody” instead of “parity.” and “Base on” instead of “Based on.” I showed it to three different people. Two felt it was fake/hoaxed but also said they might be wrong. One specifically pointed out the spelling errors right off the bat and both had major problems with numerous other aspects of the document. If they want to publicly state their concerns on social media or elsewhere, I welcome it. I’m aware of where this document allegedly leaked from within the U.S. government but can’t share that information.

I believe it to be a legitimate document because of the following:

An independent source with the appropriate security clearances and need-to-know access had authenticated and validated the Nov. 1961 SNIE with several SIS-level authorities at the U.S. government agency that owns it, so this document is not any hoax or forgery.

(SIS = Senior Intelligence Service ~Joe)

And the same source added this little tidbit: The author of this SNIE report has a documented history of leaving various, uncorrected typos in their final reports. What?! That piece of information might just be my favorite part of this entire story!!! That tells you just how thorough this source (and others like him/her) are with this material. They need to make sure before they put their reputation behind it. And I realize it’s an anonymous source but I know who they are and I have no doubt this document is legitimate. The one source who first brought up the typos never mentioned that possibility. I was going to search for other, similar reports with typos but I trust this source so I’ll take their word for it. Others can take a look. On a related note, when Luis Elizondo’s resignation letter leaked, folks pointed to a few typos and started claiming it was fake. It wasn’t.

Another source told me where to find the document and here it is. Once again, I’m not a document person so I’ll leave it to others to tear apart. And I know that’s coming.

Here are the highlights of the document that stand out and which are relevant to our discussion. Hopefully, I’m understanding it correctly. The U.S. was worried that if a nuclear-powered UFO crashed in the Soviet Union or created electrical interference with the Soviet airborne, early detection equipment – thus causing confusion and problems with identifying the source – the Soviets might think it was ours and retaliate with nuclear missile strikes and kill tens of millions of Americans. Our retaliatory effort could cause 100 million Soviet deaths and within 18 months, half the world’s population could be dead from the nuclear contamination and fallout. That’s a good reason to work together with your enemy in an attempt to prevent that from happening. Did we? In 1961, there were six cases where nuclear materials were involved in retrieving unidentified space vehicles. I’m not sure unidentified space vehicles are UFOs. I think they may be prosaic, Soviet space devices, as Vallee wrote. But here’s the important text.

In the current political and military situation in which the United States finds itself in the Cold War effort against the USSR, there is the remote possibility within current understanding of the verifiable UFO phenomena that early warning defense systems could err in the identification of unidentified aircraft and missiles. This probability is estimated to fall within a 20% margin for error and could pose possible early attack warnings to be issued within the 30 minute decision window before a DEFCON 2 alert goes in to affect. We concur that 2% of UFO cases studied have caused electrical interference with airborne early detection equipment
and have caused a confusion and identification factor which could be attributed to enemy ECM. We believe Soviet capabilities in this area are of such sophistication that it is possible that simulated UFO detection could be regarded as an actual attack. We also believe the Soviets have calculated that U.S. ECM capabilities are on a level similar to theirs and are at parody.

It is almost certain that a crashed nuclear powered UFO on Soviet territory could generate misguided suspicions and trigger a retaliatory act on the United States or its allies within 30 minutes of detection.

The full text of the entire document is at the end of this blog.

This document got me looking at other articles with a different eye like this excerpt from the unreleased version of Kean’s article in the June, 2000 issue of the French magazine, “VSD.” UFOs forcing us to cooperate with our mortal enemy may not be such a bad thing.

In earlier decades, such concerns were openly discussed among American government officials. In 1960, for example, Representative Leonard G. Wolf of Iowa entered an “urgent warning” from former CIA Director Vice Admiral R.E. Hillenkoetter into the Congressional Record that “certain dangers are linked with unidentified flying objects.” Wolf cited Gen. L.M. Chassin, NATO coordinator of Allied Air Service, warning that “if we persist in refusing to recognize the existence of the UFOs, we will end up, one fine day, by mistaking them for the guided missiles of an enemy – and the worst will be upon us.”

Wolf also referenced a three-year study which determined that air defense scrambles and alerts had already occurred due to the presence of UFOs. The study said that all defense personnel “should be told that UFOs are real and should be trained to distinguish them – by their characteristic speeds and maneuvers – from conventional planes and missiles.”

These concerns were taken seriously enough to be incorporated into the 1971 “Agreement on Measures to Reduce the Outbreak of Nuclear War” between the United States and the Soviet Union. The treaty states that the two countries will “notify each other immediately in the event of detection by missile warning systems of unidentified objects… if such occurrences could create a risk of outbreak of nuclear war between the two countries.” The Cometa assures its readers that UFOs have not been the cause of any hostile acts “although intimidation maneuvers have been confirmed.”



Core Secrets, Lies and “No Comment”

One of the articles that’s most quoted when it comes to SAPs and USAPs is the Bill Sweetman, Jane’s Defense Weekly article from January 5th, 2000 entitled, “In Search of the Pentagon’s Billion Dollar Hidden Budgets.” I first saw this referenced in Leslie Kean’s UFO masterpiece. The word, “Core Secret” is used several times by Admiral Wilson when he wouldn’t answer a specific question from Dr. Davis. What aerospace company has the crash retrieval material? Wilson: “Core Secret.” Here are excerpts from that article and comments from me.

An unacknowledged SAP – a black program – is a program which is considered so sensitive that the fact of its existence is a ‘core secret’, defined in USAF regulations as “any item, progress, strategy or element of information, the compromise of which would result in unrecoverable failure”. In other words, revealing the existence of a black program would undermine its military value.

A more substantial limitation on oversight is that some unacknowledged SAPs are not reported to the full committees. At the Secretary of Defense’s discretion, the reporting requirements may be waived. In this case, only eight individuals – the chair and ranking minority member of each of the four defense committees – are notified of the decision. According to the 1997 Senate Commission, this notification may be only oral. These “waived SAPs” are the blackest of black programs.

How many of the SAPs are unacknowledged, and how many are waived, is a question which only a few people can answer: eight members of Congress, the members of SAPOC (including the Deputy Secretary of Defense), and the Secretary of Defense.

As my source said, you would first have to know of the SAP’s existence and go from there. I’m going to paste source’s comments here again because I feel they are so important in helping us understand what’s going on and hammer home the point that there are blacker programs and that’s where you will find the UFO gold mine.

“Various people within the United States government, in positions of oversight and who you would think had access to all UAP programs, did not find the UAP crash retrieval program when they looked because they never knew of its existence. I, and others in my circle, have discussed the topic with them of how one cannot find waived-in acknowledged SAPs that operate outside of Section 119 of Title 10. In fact, a DoD office can create a shell company and then transfer funds to it under an unremarkable commercial defense services contract. Then that shell company turns around and gives a subcontract to a third-party aerospace/defense firm that hosts a waived-unacknowledged SAP that operates outside of Sect. 119 of Title 10. This usually hides (making the audit trail terminate at the shell company) the flow of money going to the third party company that’s running a waived-unacknowledged SAP where a UAP crash retrieval program is hidden.

Sweetman continues…

Confronted with the unauthorized use of a program name or a specific question, an ‘accessed’ individual may deny all knowledge of a program – as he should, because its existence is a core secret, and a mere “no comment” is tantamount to confirmation. The questioner – who may not be aware that an accessed individual must respond with a denial – will believe that denial and spread it further.

I believe this explains a lot of what’s been going on with this story and all of the denials from Admiral Wilson. As Dr. Davis said, “You’re going to be lied to because that’s the rule.” Sweetman spelled out the rule over twenty years ago and it still holds true today.

But the other folks Billy Cox contacted and the SAP-related military man I spoke with may be in a different situation. I’m not sure what constitutes “accessed.” Are the folks who helped Admiral Wilson find the crash retrieval program, “accessed”? I don’t know. I’d say no but I’d need an expert to clarify. In the meantime, keep in mind that I’m speculating and thinking out loud. As far as what you can and can’t say about a SAP? Will Miller told me there are so many different rules about that when you work in one SAP vs. another SAP. It’s varies, a lot.

So, if they aren’t bound by secrecy and they’re not read into this crash retrieval program, why do they mislead us? They may just be covering for Wilson out of loyalty, respect and camaraderie. If they told the truth, it would show that Wilson was lying all these years. As a journalist told me last week, they’re sure good at presenting a united front. In reality, they may legally be able to share what he told them, what he found and how he was denied access. What you hope for is one or two to break ranks and lead us to the craft.

Sweetman writes, “A mere ‘no comment’ is tantamount to confirmation.”

I don’t believe Dr. Davis has ever been read into the crash retrieval program. But when you listen to his radio interviews, it’s safe to assume he learned a lot about it through various relationships he’s developed over the years with people who have intimate knowledge of the subject. Whether any of those folks have been inside these crash retrieval programs or read into them is a question I can’t answer. If you believe the documents are legitimate, and I do, Dr. Davis learned a lot from that conversation with Admiral Wilson in 2002. And Wilson, while not being allowed to take a tour of the facility in question and see the “intact craft,” also learned a lot.


Since Dr. Davis was not read into the crash retrieval SAP and acquired that information through his sources, he’s able to share a lot during his various interviews. When folks wonder if he’s sharing classified information (or coming close) on Coast to Coast AM or Open Mind Radio with Alejandro Rojas, he’s not. He’s too brilliant to make that mistake.

If I’m understanding this correctly, Dr. Davis can legally talk about what happened in 2002 in Las Vegas and face no legal repercussions. But he chooses not to because he promised Admiral Wilson and gave his word. And to Dr. Davis, his word is his bond. Read the WD documents again. The reputation Dr. Davis had in 2002 was stellar and a big reason why Wilson was willing to meet with him. He trusted him and figured nobody else would ever know about the meeting, except maybe some folks within the inner circle of NIDS. The death of Dr. Mitchell changed that.

I assume Dr. Davis has read Sweetman’s article and knew on his own that “no comment” means “confirmation” for an accessed individual. So when he gave out several “no comments,” was that his way of throwing us a bone without burning Wilson? It makes sense to me and if it’s true, it’s brilliant. But only he knows.

‘Presented with a wall of denial, most of the media has abandoned any serious attempts to investigate classified programs.’

Thankfully, folks like Giuliano Marinkovic, Billy Cox, Richard Dolan, Grant Cameron and others, never stopped their own investigations into this story that began all the way back on April 10th in 1997. And I think it’s about to pay off. And on the overall story of UFO secrecy, we’re fortunate to have a mainstream reporter like George Knapp on our side.

On an important side note: I believe a tape of this meeting and conversation is safely hidden away for future use. It’s historic.

In Luis Elizondo’s resignation letter, he asked an important question: “who else knows?” You want to know who else knows? Find the folks who have need-to-know clearances to the crash retrieval program and other UFO programs that are hidden away in the SAP labyrinth. That’s the key that could unlock the door to untold riches of world-changing information. Until then, we wait. It’s your move mainstream media.


Once the document appeared online, I had one big regret: I had a chance to talk UFOs with Will Miller back in 2007 when I visited him. But as I explained in Part 1 (which feels like a year ago at this point!) I didn’t do it. A few times over the years, he would reach out to me and suggest we talk UFOs. And I wouldn’t get back to him. Hello? What was wrong with me? In my defense, I had no idea how important he was back then. Otherwise, I would have called! 😀 Besides Will, in recent years, how many Naval Commanders or other members of the military made such an amazing effort to brief and educate Generals, Admirals and others about UFOs? Zero? And some of those folks had experiences with the phenomenon and were looking for answers. I’m sure having Will there was invaluable to them.

Well, last week, I reached out to my friend James Iandoli, who’s friends with Will, to see if he could connect the two of us again. It had been four year and to be honest, I felt like an idiot and didn’t want to call Will out of the blue. He was in the spotlight when this story broke last year and I wanted to give him his space. So after hearing from James that Will was willing to talk to me, I called him on Skype and we had a video chat for an hour. And it was great to reconnect! For some reason, we have a bond and we barely know each other. Well, that’s how I feel. I can’t speak for Will.

Will agreed to answer questions I had via email so I gave him a “short” list of over forty questions! Graciously, he took the time to answer almost every one. Since I believe 100% the Wilson/Davis docs are legit, you might think this is anticlimactic. It’s not. There were some surprises, as you’ll see. I’ll post the entire exchange tomorrow or later this week. Will’s last answer, if accurate, is going to send shockwaves around the planet. And I was NOT expecting that!

First, here’s the background on Will.

Commander Will Miller, United States Navy – Retired

Commander Miller is a graduate of Virginia Tech, holds a Master of Education degree from the College of William & Mary, and a Certificate in National Security Management from the Industrial College of the Armed Forces (ICAF).

He is a former Naval Officer, decorated Vietnam combat veteran, educator, advisor, futurist, and former briefer to U.S. Commanders-in-Chief, and senior Department of Defense (DoD) & White House Staff.

Among Commander Miller’s diverse positions and awards are:

• Advisor to U.S. Space Command & the Supreme Allied Commander – Atlantic (Norfolk, VA) for World-War III, nuclear, technological, and natural disaster planning, survival & Continuity of Operations (COOP).

• Senior Technology Support Officer – US Atlantic Command

• Chairman for American Red Cross, Mid-Atlantic Region, Disaster Services Teams & member, ARC-(Mid-Atl.) – Board of Directors.

• International Counterdrug Operations, US Atlantic Command (Norfolk, VA) & U.S. Southern Command, Key West, FL

• Advisor to President, Neighborhood Energy.Com – hydrogen vehicles.

• Knighted – Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem (Knights Templar) the oldest Military Knighthood. (

• Patron and Booking Agent for internationally known Hollywood keyboard artist & composer, OKSANA. (

• Florida Registered Agent for Maryland’s prestigious Elk Run Vineyard and Winery. (

With the late Sir Arthur C. Clark and Apollo-14 Astronaut Ed Mitchell, served on an Advisory Board for International Space Cooperation & Development (ISCOS), and helped write the International “Outer Space Security & Development Treaty” of 2012.

Founder and President of NOVA Engineering and Consulting, International, providing specialized technology consulting services to government and private clients.

Certified Independent DEALER for AMSOIL Synthetic lubricants including 25,000-mile motor oil & filters.

Served on Pinellas County, FL “Long-term (Disaster) Recovery Organizations, “Recover Pinellas” & “Recover Tampa Bay Initiative”


– Department of “Defense Meritorious Service Medal”,

– “Navy Achievement Medal” with Combat Valor “V”

– U.S. Army Commander’s “Award for Superior Civilian Service”.

He is an active member of the American Legion, Veterans of Foreign Wars, and Rotary International.

CDR Miller is the grandson of Elton W. Miller, former Director of Aeronautics for NACA, predecessor of NASA.

Additional positions:

Current Member: ROTARY E-Club of Southeast USA and Caribbean.

Past Chairman & Senior Advisor to the Rotary International District 6950 (Central Florida Gulf Coast) Disaster Preparedness & Response Committee

CLEARANCES: Held Top Secret Clearance with Special Compartmented Information Access (TS/SCI)



June 18, 2020

Joe Murgia: What’s your overall opinion on the Wilson/Davis documents and the story told within them? Sound plausible from what you know?

SG = Steven Greer

Will Miller: It’s been awhile since I looked at a photo copy of them; my only comment is that I would be VERY surprised IF ADM Wilson actually granted an interview on the “subject” that he has tried to distance himself from ever since my & SG’s meeting in the Pentagon with him.

On a related topic, IF someone had a “crashed UFO”, and wanted to study its technology, where would you take it?

IF I was going to do any “tracking” of who would be involved, I’d first assume that some DoD entity would assume “first control & acquisition” of the “artifact”.

Other than the DoD and Service Labs (DARPA, NAVY RESEARCH LABS (NRL), Army Research Labs (ARL), etc., one could reasonably speculate that civilian aerospace contractors (like Boeing, Lockheed, Raytheon, etc.) would have to be involved in the analysis of “hardware”.  They would have the technical expertise and specialized sub-contractors to perform the technical analysis. So….. talking with someone on the “inside’ of those companies would be a ‘first step”….. Boeing has a “black” R&D entity: Phantom-Works, and Lockheed has their legendary “Skunk-works” – famous for the U-2, SR-71, B-1, B-2, F-117, etc….

JM: Have you ever written a letter to Dr. Eric Davis?

WM: I have E-mailed Davis with some very mundane correspondence.  I have no recollection or information on a “letter”, purportedly written to him by me.

JM: Did you ever have interest in Roswell, Holloman, MJ-12 & leaked docs, Zamora & Bentwaters? (These subjects were all mentioned in the purported letter from Commander Miller to Dr. Davis. ~Joe)

WM: All but Zamora  – not familiar

JM: Are you prepared to say your letter is a fake?

WM: I have no recollection of the “letter.”

JM: What parts of your letter are problematic or possibly cut and paste.

WM: (Was not willing to discuss. ~JM)

JM: Can you elaborate on any parts of 1-4 on the 2nd page of your letter?

WM: (Was not willing to discuss. ~JM)

JM: April 10th, 1997 Director of Intelligence on the Joint Chief Staff Deputy J2 (Wilson) and September 15th, 1998 Director of DIA (Hughes) both requested the briefings? Do you know what sparked their interest? Were you surprised they had this interest? How serious did they take the briefing? Did they ask questions? Who else was there?

WM: I sparked their interest! I worked very hard via my sources & channels to set up those two/three briefings, first with very brief informal mtgs with both, then set up formal brief via their aides. I was not surprised that they had interest; many senior officials have interest – it’s just rare that they can talk to someone with serious information – not conspiracy theorists or UFO nuts. They took the briefings as seriously as they would for any other National Security issue.  Yes, they both asked questions. With J-2A, it was just our group: SG, Mitchell, BG-retired Steve Lovekin (deceased), and Shari Adamiak (deceased), SG’s right arm. With Hughes, it was just me, SG, & a COL who took notes.

JM: Admiral Wilson said he took that briefing as a courtesy to you and Edgar Mitchell. True? He was ‘curious’ why someone of Dr. Mitchell’s stature would be pursuing this matter. Does that match with what you knew going into that brief? I thought his office requested it?

WM: Wilson did it at my request.  Hughes requested it – in fact his office requested that I “expedite” getting the briefing to him.

JM: 2013, you and Dr. Greer had a conversation on YouTube. He talked about an Admiral who had found one of those USAPs through code names. And basically, Dr. Greer said the Admiral was told by these USAP folks…well, we know who you are, but you don’t have a need to know and we’re not going to tell you anything.

WM: The deepest-black programs have numbers, not names.  “Program 4327” vs. Program “Dark Skies”.

JM: You didn’t say anything. Was Greer telling the truth?

WM: I have no idea about SG.

JM: After your meeting with Greer, Mitchell and others broke up, did you speak with Admiral Wilson by yourself? Can you share anything about what you discussed?

WM: No, no further discussion by me with Wilson.

JM: If Wilson or any other General or Admiral (a Joint Chiefs fella) went looking for and found a USAP that they didn’t have a need-to-know about, what do you think would happen?

WM: Not likely that someone would “stumble upon” a USAP.  First, they’d have to be “read-in”  to even know what the name (or number) related to, BUT should for some strange reason they learned of the existence of a SAP (and in many cases even that existence is classified), they would face a blank-wall: no additional information – they don’t have the “need to know”, despite whatever “clearance’ they hold.


JM: Program manager, security director and corporate attorney allegedly showed their bigot list to Wilson dated 1990, and updated 1993. No politicians. No White House names, no President! No Congressional people. No Congressional staffers. No names in Clinton or Bush Sr. Administrations. Handful of names were Pentagon individuals, few from OUSDAT, one from another department. Sound plausible for how a bigot list would look?

WM: BIGOT List: from WW-II: ” British Invasion of German Occupied Territory”. Today it’s just a list of SAP/USAP authorized individuals. List vary according to the program in question, the types of individuals needed to run the program, and how limited the access needs to be, depending on the sensitivity of the program.

JM: Is it consistent with your knowledge of USAPs that they’re buried/hidden within other SAPs?

WM: Not necessarily. Most/many are “stand-alone” programs.  It is often determined they be “unacknowledged” due to the extreme sensitivity of the program, and often a concern for congressional “loose lips”, even with a classified program.

JM: Wilson/Davis document claim an audit accidentally lead to this UFO SAP. Is that something that you’ve heard of?

WM: No. I have heard of no SAPS being revealed by an unrelated audit.  Regular SAPS may face some fiscal oversight – not true for USAPS – immune from oversight.

JM: Docs say there were 4 programs in different compartments, placed in different layers of compartments pyramid, split up to do different things. Connection to each other not obvious. Does that sound like how you know things are set-up?

WM: Sometimes such are part of a labyrinth of compartmented info. Others are stand-alone programs.  For example, a TS program may have within it a SAP, known only to those read into its info; other SAPS stand by themselves.  Sometimes related to how funding is apportioned/obtained.

JM: You’ve said that senior Admirals, Generals, Joint Chief of Staff, don’t have access to some of this UFO information or aren’t told about it to protect them with plausible deniability. But normally, who does get read in?

WM: As LTCOL Phillip Corso said, it is usually long-term civilian civil service personnel, with the highest clearances, who retain the “corporate knowledge” of such subjects, since the military personnel come & go in reassignment.  Heads of Agencies, especially “three-letter” ones, are generally NOT given the whole picture so they can have plausible deniability should they be summoned to testify.

JM: Who makes up the folks who are in the government for the long haul? The so-called “permanent bureaucracy” people who may have access to certain information that a short-timer (politician or appointed position like a Joint Chiefs) would not?

WM: Senior civilian civil service employees.

JM: From what you know of SAPs and USAPs, how many people do you think would be on a bigot list for a program that deals with recovered non-human tech?

WM: Some “black programs” have as few as 10-15 “core” people sworn into/read into their programs.  Others have 50-100 – perhaps more.  They key to a SAP is that it’s a SPECIAL ACCESS Program; not just anyone with a TS clearance can have the “need to know”; all must be read-in to the programs.

JM: How many SAPs and USAPs have you been read into?

WM: I think it was four or five.  Some had sub-SAPS – additional compartmented information.

JM: Wilson’s aid told you that they know MJ-12 exists but they don’t have a need to know what they do. Have you heard about MJ-12 from other sources? Is it UFO-related? Did Admiral Wilson talk to you about MJ-12 and confirm it was real? Any other source ever confirm that?

WM: It was not Wilson, but his aide that confirmed – after the mtg. Ryan Wood also is convinced that MJ-12 is/was real; he’s the leading researcher on those docs.  Good friend.


“I’m not saying there are no such programs because I don’t know. I didn’t check or follow up. It might not have been a waste of time for somebody (to pursue), but I did not have time to waste, believe me.”

JM: That’s a quote from Admiral Wilson from the recent article by Billy Cox. Are you surprised to see him say any of that? It seems he’s open to the possibility of the existence of a buried, USAP crash retrieval program with no Congressional oversight. Your thoughts?

WM: Concur. But am surprised. He said to us that he found it impossible that such a program could be kept secret for so many years. Strange, since it’s routine for such programs to persist, unknown to most, for years.


JM: What kind of fine or prison time can someone get for breaking their security oath to talk about, let’s say, an USAP that’s related to non-human technology and the program was created illegally, without Congressional oversight?

WM: Legal program – unauthorized disclosure could be “life.” ILLEGAL program – should be NO penalty.

JM: If I ask someone about a “core secret,” or a SAP/USAP is “no comment” considered an acceptable answer?

WM: Yes.

JM: If there has been technology transfer, has it benefited humanity? Should it?

WM: Lasers, LEDs, fiber optics, bioengineering, just to name a few that may have “off-planet” genesis.  Yes, it should benefit humanity.

JM: In your opinion, from what you have learned from sources, do you think we (or other countries) have an intact craft, multiple intact craft or just pieces of UFOs?

WM: It’s my firm belief that yes, we – the Russians, probably the Germans, & perhaps the Chinese have at least partial technologies (pieces), and most likely for the US – entire operational craft.

I believe we have our own trans-luminal velocity craft that can take us anywhere in space & time.  Did we develop this technology independently? Probably not!


If you believe the story told in the Wilson/Davis documents, then a lot of people I wrote about in this blog are either not telling the truth or, as in the case of Dr. Davis, not talking. If one day, we learn these folks were not telling truth, I hope people don’t judge them too harshly. I’m not of the belief that people should risk prison or take risks and break their security oaths. I understand how world-changing this story and related technology can/will be but one person speaking up and saying there is a crash retrieval program is not going to do anything. It would have to be a group of witnesses and we’d need a way to access the legacy UAP recovery and reverse engineering studies program.

If it wasn’t for Commander Miller, Dr. Mitchell, Dr. Greer and Shari Adamiak back in 1997, we wouldn’t be on the verge of a giant breakthrough IF, the New York Times is able to publish. No matter who spoke out of turn, it’s the reason we’re at the precipice of something humongous that I didn’t expect to see for decades, if at all. And why did Admiral Wilson try to access a program for which he knew he didn’t have the need-to-know? As a fellow researcher said to me, “Maybe he decided to rogue?” Whatever the case, he may wind up being a hero one day when the history books are rewritten because of this subject. Keep that in mind when you think of his denials.


I was hoping a respected member of our community would speak up and back the legitimacy of this document. Well, you can’t get more respected than George Knapp. So glad he’s on our side. Ever since I heard the NYT was trying to publish a story on this, my mind has been racing about what this could do to the world. But other folks I spoke to weren’t as excited. Nice to see George is on the same wavelength. Buckle up! If you had any doubt about these documents, this should end that right now. Read it slowly.

“I’’ll just tell you this. I think that this…I am fairly certain that this is an accurate representation of a meeting that really did happen. It was typed up not to distribute it to the public, but to share with the very tight group of professionals and the NIDS Science Advisory Board. Among them was Dr. Edgar Mitchell. It looks like Dr. Edgar Mitchell after he died, his personal papers got in the hands of members of his family, and then dribbled out to the UFO community, and I think is where this came from. This meeting happened. Admiral Wilson denies it. I think he’ll always deny it. Dr. Eric Davis is not somebody who makes this stuff up. He certainly doesn’t make it up and then hand it to his boss Bob Bigelow in the Science Advisory Board made up by the whole clout. You may not believe that the contents of what is discussed in this meeting is true, and we have no way to verify if all this is true or not. But did the meeting take place? Yes, it did and this memo is an accurate reflection of what happened. I think that…remember we at the beginning of this podcast we talked about The New York Times poking around. Part of what they’re poking around about is this memo. Is it true? Does somebody have metamaterials stashed in the hangar somewhere or in a lab? Are they investigating it or they are trying to figure it out? It’s the most enticing part of the UFO mystery other than who are these beings, and where they are from, and why are they here. If you can have physical evidence that it came from somewhere else, that we are taking apart, and trying to figure out how it works, that’s an indication it’s not ours. It came from somewhere else. And that is sort of the holy grail. That would change the whole debate. If The New York Tines goes ahead with that story, even if they are unable to prove it definitively, that’s a really big deal.” ~George Knapp


On a final note, here’s one more data point that may turn some skeptical heads. Below is the trailer for the upcoming James Fox documentary, “The Phenomenon.”

Thanks to The Great Giuliano and his message to me today (June 25th, 2020), I discovered that prolific, documentary filmaker, Fox, had commented on the Wilson/Davis memo in a March 28th video hosted by UFO Denmark. Once again, folks, it’s real!!!


Q: “What do you think about the Wilson leak that Richard Dolan has been covering and that came out recently, that they think came out from his files?

Filmmaker James Fox: “Yeah, well, yeah (laughs). Umm, so…(sighs) I don’t know how much I can reveal on this, comfortably here. Let’s just say that I knew Edgar quite well and I was friends with his goddaughter, who helped me get an interview with him twenty-two years ago, twenty-three, twenty-four years ago? My God! And I had been in touch with this person and they confirmed that, that, that probably did come from Edgar’s files and they even zeroed in on who probably walked out of his house with it. So it seems like a legitimate document and umm, you know, I believe that Roswell happened.

“We actually cover Roswell in this film and it’s funny actually, because, I thought about Roswell for a long time and I’ve kind of avoided it because it’s kind of a hot buttom issue, kind of a hot potato. It’s got a lot of baggage, you know, it’s like Area 51. But we cover Roswell in “The Phenomenon” and I remember sitting in the studio with Jacques Vallee, who wasn’t particularly excited about the fact we were covering Roswell, for obvious reasons. But Jacques would sit in the back of the room and he would say, “Just the facts ma’am. Just the facts ma’am.

“So what we did was, we dug up archival footage, with the help of Don Schmitt, David Marlar and my sister Kelly Fox, who was an archivist on this project for a couple of years, and we dug up, just the facts, just who was there, what they saw, what they reported and kept it very conservative. So I’m coming from a standpoint where, and I think anyone who’s got any doubts of Roswell once they see, you know. We had the top researchers help us put together, just-the-facts. This archived interview with Jesse Marcel, Colonel Dubose, all the high-resolution photographs, B-roll, the son of the man who – Mac Brazel’s son – who found the debris. We interviewed the governor of New Mexico.

“I’m convinced that Roswell did happen the way it’s said to have happened. And so, why not having that conversation? You know what I mean? I’m sure that is a legitmate document, I’m sure those conversations were had and I do believe that Roswell did happen the way they initially announced it happening.”


Text of alleged UFOs and the Nuclear Threat Document

Page 1


Top Secret
JUL 2 1 2000





NSA Scientific Advisory Board
Joint. Atomic. Energy. Intelligence
The Guided Missile and Astronautics
Intelligence Committee
The Scientific Intelligence Committee


The President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board

No. 1-is 61-E

Critical Aspects of Unidentified Flying Objects and the Nuclear Threat to the Defense of the United States and Allies


5 November 1961

This document contains information affecting
The national defense of the United States within
the Espionage Laws, Title 18. U.S.C., Section
793 and 794. The transmission or revelation of
Its contents in any manner to an unauthorized
person is prohibited by law
Exempted from automatic regrading DoD 5200.10

This document contains ___ ph
Copy No. ___ of ___ copies

Page 2


Basis for Action

In pursuant to Presidential National Security Action Memorandum No. 70 and a separate action item levied against the DCI for the production of a SNIE regarding what information concerning unidentified flying objects has been collected and evaluated in the context of nuclear war possibilities, DCID 5/1 was authorized by the USIB and subsequent action was taken by the Office of National Estimates. DCID 5/1 also identified guidance from NSC Staff for opinions and recommendations of CIA MJTwelve consultants on a wide variety of issues. Specific TRs were issued to NSASAB, JAEIC, GMAIC, and SIC by appropriate agencies of the USAF to illuminate ambiguity and confusion in the preparation of this SNIE. Based on information collected by authorized contacts within appropriate components of DD/O, O/O, FBIS and INR, minimal threat warnings are considered classified, and as such, were taken at face value.


Summary reports from USAF UFO project files and estimates from OSI were provided as a basis for evaluating technical challenges and COMINT sorting of relevant data. MJTWLEVE advisory group cooperated in summarizing the over all situation as it now stands and assisted in the preparation of historical data. What foreign intelligence was available IACs were submitted for weapons system analysis and useful integration data was supplied by JNEIC and JRDB specialists.


Page —- of——

DoD 5200.10



Page 3


Critical Aspects of Unidentified Flying Objects and the Nuclear Threat to the Defense of the United States and Allies

In the current political and military situation in which the United States
finds itself in the Cold War effort against the USSR, there is the remote
possibility within current understanding of the verifiable UFO phenomena
that early warning defense systems could err in the identification of
unidentified aircraft and missiles. This probability is estimated to fall
within a 20% margin for error and could pose possible early attack warnings
to be issued within the 30 minute decision window before a DEFCON 2
alert goes in to affect. We concur that 2% of UFO cases studied
have caused electrical interference with airborne early detection equipment
and have caused a confusion and identification factor which could be
attributed to enemy ECM. We believe Soviet capabilities in this area are
of such sophistication that it is possible that simulated UFO detection could
be regarded as an actual attack. We also believe the Soviets have calculated
that U.S. ECM capabilities are on a level similar to theirs and are at parody.

There are only six cases in which nuclear materials were involved in the
retrieval of unidentified space vehicles of which U.S. intelligence can vouch
for that could present forseeable problems. The most serious are
contamination, exposure, and collateral damage inflicted on unsuspecting
elements of the population. The less serious involve panic and false rumors
of a Soviet sneak attack. It is almost certain that a crashed nuclear
powered UFO on Soviet territory could generate misguided suspicions and
trigger a retaliatory act on the United States or its allies within 30
minutes of detection. It is doubtful that China has a nuclear attack
capability at the present time it is not seen as a problem area. Nuclear


Page ___ of___

DoD 5200.10



Page 4


weapons development by the Israelies is not known and is doubtful that
They will have one in the next five years.

We estimate that a misguided retaliatory strike against the United States
by Soviet land, sea and airborne nuclear forces based on a detectable
crashed nuclear powered UFO event could inflict severe damage to major
population centers and national military command and control centers.
Base on AEC and DOD atmospheric nuclear weapons research data, a full
measure of Soviet rocket and bomber forces could deliver enough megaton
weapons to kill 20-50 million Americans in the initial attack and post-strike
fallout could kill another 20 million within 90 days. Added chaos would
result in more deaths straining emergency management resources to their
limit. Our retaliatory capability is estimated to be twice as effective
resulting in 100 million Soviet dead. Fallout projections indicate that
radioactive clouds could circle the earth within nine months causing
Nuclear sickness in other countries. Projections calculate half the earth’s
Population could die within 18 months. These projections are based on
CIA and DoD postmortem studies an estimated Soviet ground tests
Detected in 1958.

Intelligence provided by MJTWELVE leads us to believe that such a
scenario is doubtful but remain cautious due to power plant studies now
being conducted at LANL which indicate past incidents in the U.S. were
detected through air sampling and ground monitoring stations. We
cannot judge with any degree of predictability what future actions we can
expect from these devices and can only guess as to what purpose such future
incidents may hold. We remain confident that current detection systems
are adequate enough and that communications between us, our allies and
the Kremlin will function due mutual desire to avoid nuclear war.



DoD 5200.10



© Joe Murgia and, 2018-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Joe Murgia and with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.

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6 Responses

  1. Fantastic work!

    Seems to me there is a clear and simple message here. The American people need to write to the relevant senators and ask them to investigate the legitimatey of such a ‘hardware’ program and determine what if anything, can be released publicly.

    The rest of us will just have to wait and see.

  2. interested bystander says:

    Joe M.,

    This alleged AEC document is fake. How do I know this? Right off the bat “Top Secret Umbra” was not used on National Intelligence Estimates from the early 1960s. Period. Not used. “Umbra” was used 1968/1969 and afterwards on TS documents. I have never seen one use that before that date.

    So fake right off the bat.

    Also, National Intelligence Estimates do have a numbered series. I will now quote from Jeffrey Richelson on NIEs. Since this fake document is dated to 1961, Richelson talks about NIEs from that year. The numbers are in parentheses.
    In 1961, there was a World Wide Series (00), Communist State Series (10), Western and Southern Europe Series (20), Middle East Series (30), Far East Series (40), Southeast Asia Series (50), North and West Africa Series (60), South and East African Series (70), Caribbean Area Series (80), and American States Series (90).

    For example, the Soviet Union Series 11-2-61 “The Soviet Atomic Energy Program”; 11-8-61 “Soviet Capabilities for Long-Range Attack.” The Series number comes first, then specific title’s identifier, then the year date. “11” was for USSR; the next digit for the particular topic; and then the last two digits were for the year.

    So based on what Richelson reports (and he was a very thorough researcher), there would be no NIE so labeled as “1-61-E.” (Another indicator of fake-ness.) The set-up of the identifier is also wrong, as that is not the way it would be done. The year date would actually be at the end of the identifier.

    Sorry, no freakin’ MJ TWELVE. (Not yet.)

  3. LILSKILL says:

    ” In my defense, I had no idea how important he was back then. Otherwise, I would have called!”

    I think this quote captures a theme in ur opinions that I find problematic. A glance at the man’s CV is enough to value his opinion and intellect, however it took him receiving media shine and becoming “a name” before becoming important to you. Something to think on.

    (U’ve always been cool on Twitter, I respect ur passion.. just friendly critique!)

  4. Joe, these four parts are a truly valuable contribution to the understanding of UFOs, specifically how information on this phenomenon is kept secret from the public, and especially how that information is also kept secret from ostensibly responsible government officials. You’ve done us all a great service. Thank you.

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