“Our team was summoned, in the past, to Washington DC, to give testimony and to report on what we have been observing on the property. There appears to be a very real, sincere interest on the part of a number of agencies and programs that that are at least monitoring what is happening, relative to reports on the ranch. And, you know, they seem sincere.” ~Brandon Fugal
By Joe Murgia – @ufojoe11 on Twitter
For a brief history of the ranch, check out this History.com article. Wanna delve deeper? I suggest you start out by reading this recent article by MJ Banias and watch this excellent lecture by award-winning, investigative reporter, George Knapp. You should also read the book, “Hunt for the Skinwalker ” by Knapp and biochemist, Colm Kelleher and watch the documentary, “Hunt for the Skinwalker” by filmmaker and investigator, Jeremy Corbell.
For those of you who don’t have time for all that, Skinwalker Ranch, located in northeastern Utah, is the most scientifically studied paranormal hotspot in the world. It was the catalyst for the U.S. government’s AAWSAP study into UFOs and paranormal phenomena. For more on that aspect, check out this fantastic article by researcher, Tim McMillan.
To read Part 1/Hour 1 of the Brandon Fugal interview, click here:
Coast To Coast AM – March 29th, 2020 – Hour 2
George Knapp (GK): We have a real exclusive here with Brandon Fugal, owner of the Skinwalker Ranch who’s agreed to stay with us for another hour and talk about what’s been happening out there. One of the scariest, spookiest aspects of the ranch is the phenomenon that’s been referred to as hitchhikers. And the Native Americans that I encountered there years ago had first told me about this. And then a lot of the people who were involved with the secret government study under BAASS, a DIA project that we’ll discuss with Brandon…they had these experiences of themselves. And what happens at Skinwalker doesn’t always stay at Skinwalker. It follows people home. I want to get into that aspect and also talk about the secrecy that surrounded the place for a long time, whether it was justified. We’ll be right back with more on Coast to Coast AM.
Brandon, we were talking about risks of those who visit the property. Who has what kind of an experience has a lot to do with what kind of attitude they have going in. I’ve always tried to prepare, sort of mentally gird my loins, I guess, when I’m going on to the property and it seemed to have worked. But for a lot of people, what happens there doesn’t stay there, it follows them home. I wonder if any of you or your team have experienced that?
Brandon Fugal (BF): Good question. I haven’t. So, for what it’s worth, I haven’t had anything, thankfully, follow me home. And so I haven’t experienced that in four years. My team, on the other hand, several members of the team have had pretty extreme incidents of high strangeness, as they call it, that had followed them home. Some more disturbing than others. And it’s hard to predict. And it’s even harder to anticipate what to expect, not only when you’re on the property, but I guess when you leave the property and may have something. I guess, follow you But I’ve never had that experience myself and I’m thankful for it.
GK: The term Skinwalker, of course it goes along with Native American history, sort of the umbrella term that that the Utes have used to describe what goes on at the property, to explain it. An umbrella term that lumps a variety of different phenomena that have happened on the property, together. I know you have delved into the history of the property. I wonder how much interaction you’ve had with the tribe and whether or not they’ve verified to you that that is, in fact, what they believe?
BF: Yeah. Very, very good questions. We’ve had a number of Native American elders out to the property. I mentioned earlier that we’ve tried to approach the property with the degree of reverence and that includes respect for the neighboring tribes and for the history of the area. And we’ve really worked to forge, I think, a stronger relationship of trust and respect. I have to give credit to Jim Morse, who is really headed up those efforts of the community. He’s raised millions of dollars for Native American charities, scholarship funds, you name it, and he really is adored by so many of the tribal leaders. And the Skinwalker aspect of this is just as real to them as driving down the street. It’s an interesting part of their lore, their heritage, and it’s something that we’re aware of. And it’s something that is difficult to wrap one’s mind around if you’re not from culture of that background. But it’s definitely a key part of the history that runs through this property. In fact, the mesa, as we call it, that, that runs the expanse of the property from east to west, has been referred to as Skinwalker Ridge. And that’s really, from what I was told, and through our research, that was really how the property was kind of given its name or its identity. And this is definitely steeped in a lot of lore and history, going back to the 1800s, especially with the tribes and some of the contention.
GK: I know you’ve done a lot of work digging into records about the previous owners. We know that, you know, the story that’s told in our book, about the ranch family that I called the Gorman’s, that they had dramatic experiences for the twenty months that they live there and beyond. But the previous owners said, “No, no, we never saw any of that stuff”. What do you make of that? And I know that there are limits…
BF: No, it’s a bunch of bunk. So one of the things that I’m quite proud of is that we’ve been able to pull together an archival history of the ranch and the surrounding area. And I’ll tell you, there are reports that go back to the the original homesteaders, back to the 1930s, of, you know, bizarre cattle mutilations that were brought to the attention of law enforcement. Even back into the 30s. We have reports from the early 1980s that date directly to the previous owners, the Myers, that had the property before the Shermans. And this is before this property was really on the radar or really reported to be a center of interest, at least. So I have a hard time with the criticism that people often are quick to give regarding, you know, the Shermans and Bigelow, and that, you know, that all of this was brought on brought by them. That it was all a figment of their imaginations or was a product of their occupation on the property or their, you know, whatever was going on. When in fact we have, I mean, we’re talking numerous accounts and very credible accounts of individuals who both lived on the property and had family members that worked on the property, that had strange encounters that frankly, defy explanation and are consistent with what we are seeing to this day. Explain that.
GK: Yeah. I mean, 200 plus years, it’s not something that Bob Bigelow or the military created. Or you, for that matter, you know? The big criticism of Bigelow, and I will admit going into this question that he’s a friend of mine, and he has allowed me to be a fly on the wall regarding the ranch, for a long time, to one degree or another. But the criticism that he plays his cards pretty close to the vest. It’s true. He’s always done that but, you know, during the NIDS era, I think he wanted a real low profile because there is an interactive quality to what goes on out there, as you just described. People who trespass or come onto the property, not only put themselves at risk, but also could gum up the works or whatever research you might be doing. So, as you have done, with your security, they tried to do that as well and tried to keep it on the down low. When the BAASS program was underway, the DIA study, for those three years, of course, they had another reason for secrecy imposed on them by a government agency but, you know, obviously, you have been able to turn that around and are ready to tell what you know, which is really refreshing.
BF: Yeah, I want to take a more collaborative transparent, approach. And you know, a big part of that, George, is we’re opening the ranch up for a live feed tomorrow. Reddit and Newsweek just were kind enough to help facilitate it with our team. And Erik Bard and our team out there have made it possible to engage people in a way that I don’t think would have ever been imagined or considered in the past. I mean, people are going to be able to actually tune in and pull up a live feed, and be able to witness, from any number of different angles, what we see on an hour to hour, minute to minute basis out there. And some of it may be boring but you never know what may pop up on the feed. We’ve learned that. And so, it’s part of this new age of collaboration and wanting to demonstrate our openness and really, our sincere desire to discover what is really going on out there. I mean, I’ve wanted to engage the public and to have them participate in a very tangible way in our journey. So I’m excited. I hope people participate. I think it doesn’t cost anything. It’s offered, I believe free. But anyhow, it’s an exciting part of what we’re doing.
GK: Well, I know I’ll be watching and we’ll post the link on Coast to Coast at the appropriate time and then Tuesday night, the TV show debuts. And that also is part of your effort to increase the transparency of what goes on there. But I imagine again, you know, when you increase the profile of the property, you know it’s an invitation to trespassers, and interlopers, vandals. I mean, that happened a lot when the when the book came out, “Hunt for the Skinwalker.” All kinds of people descended on the property, taking, sneaking onto it, ripping off the gates and fences and taking souvenirs and having little beer parties. And, you know, it creates a lot of problems for…
BF: Yeah, people are very disrespectful. And it’s sad, because I don’t think people realize that we really are engaged in a serious investigation. I mean, this is a scientific research project and in order to maintain the integrity of that project, I mean, wwe have to have a secure site. And you know, violating that security, compromises the nature of what we’re trying to record. It compromises the data. And I don’t think people take that into consideration and it’s really unfortunate. But my hope is that people in the future will be respectful and a big part of agreeing to this show is really my effort to engage the public and I want people to see behind the scenes. I want them to have, really, a look into the ranch and into exactly what we are doing in order to really discover the truth, to really discover the secret of Skinwalker Ranch.
GK: Share with me, sort of the arrival of the TV crew. Because again, we’re talking about balancing risks versus rewards. When you bring people on, you put them at risk to some degree, and I’m sure at least some of them were aware of what kind of risks there were. Others might have been totally dismissive of the whole thing.
BF: Ah, you know, yeah, that is that is true. I would say that the majority, if not all of the crew that came in from LA, were very vocal skeptics. I think they thought that it was that it was all a bunch of baloney but it was a job and they were there to document what was happening. But we required everyone to sign NDAs and also, liability agreements, acknowledging that there was a danger involved, that people have been hurt, that there that there is unexplained phenomena. They had to acknowledge that going in. And we require that of anyone who enters the property, as part of the investigation, whether they be a vendor or a contractor or someone involved in this case, as your pointing out, with the crew. And I would dare say that the crew that came out and were there for months, that mobilized on site with our team, I think…I would be surprised if there was one of them that left skeptical or at least left without scratching their head. And saying well, they…admitting honestly that they have witnessed things that they simply cannot describe, or in some cases, really explain away.
Dr. Taylor, you know, Travis Taylor, who we brought on, to really engage and challenge the team, and really elevate this from being an observational science exercise, to something, I think, a little bit more aggressive. You know, Dr. Taylor came on as a skeptic. I think he thought that we were all pretty silly. And even shown the evidence, I think he really wasn’t willing to concede that there was something truly unexplained or extraordinary going on and, you know, as has been reported, he left also scratching his head. And we’ll be bringing him back. In fact, he’s now a key member of the team, along with Dr. Jim Sagala, who has really been advising Erik Bard. So, interesting times.
GK: You know, as a tendency, I think, with the ranch, of new eyewitnesses, people come to the property, they may be skeptical at first, and then they have an experience and they’re no longer skeptical. But they are skeptical of what other people saw, you know, critical of, “Well, I know I saw something, but I don’t believe the other stuff.” It’s just, I guess human nature, comes with the territory.
BF: Sure. Well, it’s…
GK: Now that your name is out there, I imagine there are all kinds of requests from people you know, to visit the property. The public certainly wants to go. I mean, it’s natural for people to be curious about it. Journalists are probably flooding you. What was it like, right after your name came out? What was the day in your life, like?
BF: Oh dear. I get enough calls, just with the various office parks and real estate development projects that I have a responsibility to. And, you know, to be hit with a wave of requests, it’s quite surprising. And I guess I shouldn’t have been surprised. But I think it’s important for people to realize that, again, we’re trying to be inclusive, but there are liability issues associated with the ranch. We can’t just open it up for tours, for the public. Because it, you know, bad things happen there, from time to time. I mean, people have been seriously injured, have ended up in the hospital. And again, we’re in the middle of conducting a serious scientific investigation on the property and we, you know, we can’t have that compromised.
And so, again, engaging with the public and really agreeing to this investigative series with History is key. I’ve been getting a lot of crap from people over, you know, partnering with History, and, you know, having them as the medium to bring this forward. And, you know, it’s easy to be a critic these days, especially online, on the Internet, but, you know…
GK: Oh, yeah.
BF: When you’re trying to disseminate information and you’re trying to engage the public and be open, transparent and do it right, in a first class fashion, I mean, there are very few outlets that frankly, will touch this with a ten-foot pole, no matter what evidence you show them. And people are understandably frightened of the topic. I mean, there’s a reason why most credible business people in my position would never submit to being involved or at least admitting involvement or an interest in this topic, because it’s treacherous. You end up getting torn apart. And it’s funny, it’s not only getting torn apart by the skeptics, you get torn apart by the very people who should be championing your cause. That’s been one thing that is really eye opening to me. is, you know, so-called UFOlogists. I mean, I swear, they are their own worst enemy. You know, I think if people tried to check their egos and have an open mind and try to look at half glass, you know, the glass half full, look at this as an abundance type of opportunity, as opposed to scarcity. I think we’d be getting a lot more done. I mean, one of the reasons why I think we’ve seen, you know, a lot of challenges with really bringing forward concrete, scientific proof and validation regarding the reality of this phenomena is because, you know, people end up undermining each other so dramatically. And I can only imagine if there are covert interests or others that are trying to suppress the truth, they probably sit back and just grab their popcorn and have a good laugh at the circus that ensues. Because it’s quite, I think, discouraging, at times. There’s a reason why a lot of the key figures in this space have now elected not to participate or at least have a social media presence. I don’t blame them.
GK: Oh. Can I get an amen? I mean, you know, you’re talking about my life for the last thirty years. I’ve seen your efforts on social media, Twitter in particular, where you try to engage the public, tell them what you’re doing, what’s coming up. And it’s just slam bam, just negativity, hostility. I’m amazed at your patience in responding to people who are overtly hostile, who have no interest in actually having a dialogue. They just want to score points.
BF: Yeah, I understand the skepticism. I really do. Because I’ve watched it from the sidelines and looked at this field of inquiry over the years and it is littered with a lot of con men. It’s littered with a lot of really bad science and in very little scientific rigor and a lot of cases. And frankly, a lot of people that are, I don’t know how else to put it, but they’re just not credible.
GK: I’ll tell you what, we’ll come back to that, Brandon. Hold on that thought. We’re also going to talk about government interest in it. Talking to Brandon Fugal, owner of Skinwalker Ranch.
You all recall that headline in December of 2017, The New York Times reveals the existence of a secret, Pentagon program called AATIP. And when that news came out, it was accompanied by some videos, that were released, of encounters between the U.S. Navy and these strange craft with seemingly magical powers. That was a huge story. It turned the UFO world upside down. What was not known at the time, at least not by the general public, was that that program had its roots at Skinwalker Ranch. We’re going to get into government interest in the property, whether it’s still interested. And then, in our final segment with my guest, Brandon Fugal, at the top of the hour, then we’re going to be joined by filmmaker, Jeremy Corbell and pop star, Robbie Williams, who both visited the property two years ago this month, at the invitation of Brandon, and had one heck of a time. So we’ll be right back. We’ll take a couple of your calls and cover a lot more ground about Skinwalker Ranch, right after this.
Brandon, as far back as the ranch family that owned the property before Bob Bigelow bought it, they had told the NIDS investigators that they would occasionally see what they presumed were military folks. Helicopters would flyover or, you know, people in SUVs and with binoculars, checking out the property. And then, of course, as we now know, the AATIP program was actually something else called AAWSAP, that was initiated by the DIA. Bob Bigelow had a contract with them. They were studying the property and a much broader spectrum of issues. And I wanted to know if you’ve had either, outreach from government to ask you what’s going on there or, a request for partnership or any indications that somebody is…you’re under surveillance out there by unknown parties?
BF: Good questions. I first and foremost, in response, I’ve had no interest in partnership with the government. Not because I don’t love my country. I love being an American. We live in the greatest country in the world and are very blessed and fortunate to be here and to to be part of this incredible United States of America. But I just did not want my investigation ever to be compromised and really have no interest in partnering or being involved or taking money from any government-related enterprise. That said, in direct response to your question, yes, I have been approached and we, you know, our team was summoned, in the past, to Washington DC, to give testimony and to report on what we have been observing on the property. There appears to be a very real, sincere interest on the part of a number of agencies and programs that that are at least monitoring what is happening, relative to reports on the ranch. And, you know, they seem sincere. And I, in the spirit of collaboration, again, I didn’t have any problem presenting the evidence and the data that we had collected. And I felt like it was a demonstration, at least on my part and my team’s part, that we really do consider this a stewardship and we’re sincerely focused on the facts. And really utilizing real, scientific rigor.
The one thing that disappointed me was the lack of exchange. I mean, it seems that, you know, everyone wants information. Everyone wants us to impart that which we have learned, which is great, and we’re happy to share, but we see very little exchange. And that’s a little disappointing. That’s probably been one of the more disappointing aspects of my journey, is that I’ve, I felt like we were kind of, in a lot of ways, on our own. Which is both, you know, exciting, but it’s, you know, it’s surprising as well in that, you know, I would have expected a little bit more of a cooperative exchange. But that’s…hey, let the chips fall. I don’t really care. I mean, we’re running a privately funded and manned program and investigation and I think that has really helped this maintain the integrity of what we’re doing. And also, it allows us to, I think, share what we’re doing with the public. I think one thing that Mr. Bigelow was challenged with, is I think he and his his people were dealing with classified information, and I’m sure there there were, you know, non disclosure agreements in place. And I respect that. I completely respect that they need to honor those. But we’re approaching this from a different angle.
GK: The premise of the AAWSAP study, which is…BAASS was the contractor for the DIA, is that there are national security implications for what has been reported at the ranch. I don’t know exactly what that is. Maybe you know, wormholes, holes in the sky, beings coming in and out from someplace else, an intelligence operating there. Do you agree that there are national security implications?
BF: Well, yeah. I think when you’re seeing objects and phenomena that are seemingly violating our airspace, that aren’t showing up on on radar, or, you know, or really operating, behaving the way that conventional craft would behave, I think it, it should raise questions. I would think that there are implications. And I would think it would be of great interest. I’m glad that there has been, I think, a more serious effort to bring the truth to light. I think that the New York Times story and the other journalism, the other reports that have now come forward and, you know, everything from your fighter pilots to others that have had the courage to go on record, relative to what they’ve seen. I think it really shows that we may be entering a new era of disclosure or at least honesty. And I think that’s refreshing. I would think that anyone who does their due diligence and looks into this field of inquiry, has to look at it from an honest perspective and has to admit that there is some real compelling evidence. We’ve seen it at Skinwalker Ranch.
GK: We’ll take a couple of calls, starting with west of the Rockies. Howard in Vancouver. Hi Howard, you’re on with Brandon Fugal.
Howard: Hello George and Brandon. I have a question for you. I know that animals seem to have a heightened awareness of things of a paranormal nature. And I’m wondering if you’ve noticed if this phenomenon has any effect on the wildlife in that area?
BF: Ah, good question. Yes. The answer is yes, we have. We’ve actually recorded on many, many occasions, animals responding to unseen forces that’s…although not picked up on camera surveillance, leave other trace evidence, if you will. And I don’t know what to make of the whole cattle mutilation phenomena. I, you know, it’s complex, and it’s disturbing, but we’ve seen, you know, what appears to be a continuation of some of that out in the area. And I don’t know how to explain it, but it’s definitely something that we’ve had to take into account. So the answer is yes. Absolutely.
Thanks for that call. Howard. We know that previous studies used animals, dogs in particular, as sort of biosensors. They would catch on to something that might be coming the way of the investigators before the human saw it. I’m sure you probably did some of that as well. Yeah.
BF: Well, we have, you know, our ranch dog, you know, that accompanies our security on patrols. William has really been a key part of our team. And it’s interesting to see him respond. He, you know, the dog, interestingly, appears to, in many cases, anticipate just before something happens. You can see the dog reacting to something that ultimately ends up showing up, whether it be on trifield meters or whatever. And so I think having biosensors out there, I think that’s important. We’ve tried to maintain, you know, some traditional ranching activities and, you know, introduce cattle to the property and some other interesting animals that you’ll see
on the series.
GK: (Laughs) Animals that don’t fall into any known category?
BF: Well, animals that traditionally you wouldn’t see on a ranch like this.
GK: You know, we’ve heard these reports in the last couple of months that, what goes on out there, allegations that it’s testing of secret military equipment. Any indications that that’s what’s been going on?
BF: You know, I haven’t seen anything that would indicate that. I haven’t seen any evidence, since acquiring the property, that that is going on. You know, I don’t want to be dismissive of, you know, experiences people have had or concerns. You know, we try to show great respect, especially to those who have who’ve served on the property prior to our program. But we really haven’t seen it. And, you know, the team, most notably like Dr. Taylor, who’s just been very vocal about it, but also, Erik Bard and Dr. Sagala, are still, you know, scratching their heads at some of these claims and reports because we’re seeing something that seems to defy explanation. Even that as an explanation.
GK: East of the Rockies, Josh, in Indiana, you’re on with Brandon. What’s on your mind?
Josh: Hi, George. Thanks for taking my call. I realize, Brandon, with my question, that there’s probably a certain level of, I don’t know, hypothetical or abstract nature to the question, but obviously, this phenomenon has shown some level of intelligence in its evasion or avoidance of being documented. But do you feel like it has any awareness or consciousness as to the potential for this greater information of this disclosure that could come about with the History Channel series? And if so, what level of impact will that have, if it does gain that awareness, on future activity?
BF: Good question. I think there is evidence that there really is anintelligence at work. I think it is both ignorance and arrogance for us to think that, you know, an entity or intelligence that can literally manipulate, you know, sophisticated surveillance systems, you know, manipulate the very consciousness of those who are on the property, they wouldn’t be aware of what what is happening and even be able to potentially anticipate what is going on. And I think that’s why we we try to approach the property and what we’re doing with a degree of humility and reverence. I think we’re truly dealing with an advanced intelligence, again, just by virtue of just the data and the ability for whatever is going on, to be able to perform astounding feats on this property.
GK: So is it aware of, I guess he’s asking, is it aware of you? Is it watching you, watching it?
BF: Yeah, I would assume so. And we have conducted our research and really our activities in a way that acknowledges that they’re very well aware of what we’re doing and we try to be respectful.
GK: In a sense, that’s a form of communication.
BF: Yeah, indeed.
GK: On the international line, we go to rob in Canada. Hi, Rob. What’s on your mind?
Rob: Hi, great show. Thanks for letting me ask the question. Given the uniqueness that this is a fixed location, I would have thought in the past that they probably would have laced this place with sensors. And different electronic equipment. Have you done anything along those lines and found anything unique? Whether it be like different anomalies and so on?
BF: Oh, yes, that’s a very good question. You know, we have seismic instrumentation on the property…infrasonic sensors. And, you know, one thing that I actually thought we would observe is that a lot of the phenomena may be somehow attributed to seismic activity. We see luminous phenomena reported globally, in association with seismic activity, and I thought that would be an actual natural explanation for what was happening or at least, creating it. One thing that we’ve been surprised by and our team of scientists have have been baffled by the fact, that the ranch as compared to the rest of, not only the basin, but, you know, the greater Utah area, experiences very little to no, seismic activity. When other areas surrounding the basin, or even in the basin, experience a seismic event, it is interesting to note that we have not seen the same level of seismic activity or any activity. Which, again, it’s a head scratcher. It’s something that we’re looking into further.
GK: Thanks for the call. You know, I’ve seen the teasers for the TV series and it looks like there’s some activity going into the ground, which, you know, a lot of what we’ve reported over the years, that the suspicion was that there was something down there. That you feel the ground shaking, there’s sounds that seem to come from the ground. Can you say anything about that part of the investigation?
BF: Sure. Yeah. We’ve recorded sounds that we still have yet to be able to attend any type of explanation on and really be able to identify the origin of where it’s originating. It’s not, you know, it’s not attributed to, you know, your traditional mining activity that is very prevalent out there. We’ve identified and locked in on the unique, you know, signatures associated with that kind of activity and what we’re monitoring, quite often, does not fall within that range. And it’s interesting.
GK: I want to go back to the phones in a second if we have time, but I wanted to give you a chance…we got about a minute, Brandon, I wanted to give you a chance to talk about the series. It debuts Tuesday night. How many episodes? How excited are you for it? What will people see?
BF: Eight episodes. Eight, one-hour episodes. I’m very excited. I’m excited because we had a lot of things happen. And we have a lot of data that we’re looking to present and a lot of very real footage. And, in the moment, evidence of what we have been experiencing over the course of the last four years. I think people are going to be pleasantly surprised. You know, there are a lot of unanswered questions, but that’s, you know, welcome to science. Welcome to discovery. But it’s, I think this is something that we’re very proud of, and we’d like to continue, hopefully, in the future, but we’ll see. I’m very, very confident that what we’re about to present is groundbreaking, at least in this this field of interests.
GK: That’s awesome. I can’t wait to see it. I’m so glad that you got a high profile platform like this to share the information with the world. And thanks for being here. Thanks for being so open and helpful to us over the years. And I look forward to cooperating with you and seeing what and hearing what comes next.
BF: Oh, you’re a class act, George, and appreciate the association and look forward to learning the truth. And the truth is out there.
GK: Thanks, Brandon. I’ll talk to you soon. Thank you for being here.
To read Part 1/Hour 1 of this interview, click here: