AATIP, AAWSAP, Colm Kelleher, James Lacatski

“Skinwalkers” Transcript: Oct. 14th – C2C – Lacatski, Kelleher & Knapp – UFO Study Can’t Just Be On Nuts & Bolts

16 Oct , 2021  

“People are forgetting the 100 plus documents that were delivered to the DIA, hundreds of pages, some of them. But there’s an entire room maintained by the contractor, BAASS, Bigelow Aerospace now, of the analyst, raw data. Pictures, recordings, it’s all there. And I ultimately, at some point in the future, would like to have this put into the National Archives, because this program was complete.”

~Dr. James T. Lacatski, Program Manager for AAWSAP


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By Joe Murgia – @TheUfoJoe

Coast to Coast AM – October 14th, 2021


George Noory (GN): We’ve got three special guests that will be joining us throughout the night. Right now, I want to introduce two of them, and in about 20 minutes we’re going to introduce the third, a former government employee. And wait till you hear that part of the interview. But we’re talking about “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon an Insider’s Account of the Secret Government UFO program.” This is a book that just came out and we’ll talk a little bit more about that as the hours progress here. First of all, our first guest is one of our partners, George Knapp a Nevada journalist, currently the chief investigative reporter at KLAS-TV and content manager for MysteryWire.com. In his 40-year career, plus, as a reporter, anchorman, commentator and newspaper columnist, he has won the highest awards in journalism and they are big, including the Peabody a couple of times, the duPont, the Edward R. Murrow award five times, the Mark Twain award for best news writing – he’s done that at least 10 times – and 28 regional Emmys. He’s a weekend host of our program, Coast to Coast and co-author of a number of books, including “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon.” Let’s introduce George Knapp. Hey, my partner, how are ya?

George Knapp (GK): George, thank you so much for having us. I appreciate it.

GN: I’m looking forward to this interview tonight. And first, before we get going, I want to just compliment you on your career and your efforts, not only on our show, Coast to Coast, that you’ve done for so many years, but the work that you’ve done in the field of ufology, George, is second to none. You are, by far, the best reporter out there covering these stories and I want the world to know that.

GK: Well, I appreciate that. You know, looking back on it, I’m now closer to the end than the beginning, obviously. But it’s amazing to me how much I’ve been able to get away with over the years. It’s so much fun to pursue this and for so long, there was nobody else really working on it. No mainstream journalists, no TV people. They’d do a sweeps story here and there but not really dig in. And it takes time to get your head around this stuff, as you well know.

GN: Well, looking at “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon,” I think you three have really hit a home run with this one. And let’s bring in Colm Kelleher. Earned a PhD in biochemistry from the University of Dublin at Trinity College. Now, between 1996 and 2004, he led the National Institute for Discovery Science, you’ve heard of it as NIDS. That’s the team on the Skinwalker Ranch and later became the Deputy Administrator of Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies, where he led the day-to-day operations, including a contract with the Defense Intelligence Agency investigating the Tic Tac and other UFO events that you’ve heard about, including intrusions of UFOs on the U.S. military bases, and other strange phenomena. This often led to the attachment of strange phenomena to military personnel who visited the ranch and brought something home to their families, resulting in frightening eruptions of paranormal events in their households that terrorized and sometimes injured their children. Back on Coast to Coast, Colm Kelleher. Colm, welcome back.

Dr. Colm Kelleher (CK): Thank you very much. It’s been quite a few years since I’ve been on this show so it’s good to be back.

GN: It’s good to have you here, and George, I want to bring you in with with us and just to give us an overview, of course, of the “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon.”

GK: Well, it’s it’s an amazing story. You know, over the last four years, we’ve seen so much change for the UFO topic, The New York Times, in December of 2017, puts out this story about a program called AATIP. Harry Reid used his influence to secure $22 million for a secret study of UFOs. It all came spilling out in that month and year. Lue Elizondo came forward and said he’d been involved with AATIP, and, you know, that is what everyone else reported for a couple of years. But the fact is, it was wrong. I mean, there was an AATIP, but the primary program was called AAWSAP: The Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program. That’s where the money went. It was a bigger program. The folks at Bigelow Aerospace, a subsidiary, managed it, they got the contract, they hired dozens of people, more than 50 at one point. Investigators, scientists, computer experts, and they launched what amounted to the biggest and most ambitious UFO study ever. They created the world’s largest UFO database. But it wasn’t just UFOs. They had to sort of follow the evidence where it led and where it led was a pretty strange place. A lot of other phenomena occur in the same space where people see UFOs. It’s not even investigated by UFO researchers, it’s discarded because it’s so outrageous, but these guys looked into it. And I’ll tell you, the things that happened, both at the ranch and around the country and the world, are hard to believe, but they’re true. These folks followed the witnesses, they saw deleterious health effects, they documented them. The bulk of that information has not been released. But this book tells the story, the intrepid investigators who risked their professional credibility and careers to pursue these things, and at last, it’s coming out to correct the record.

GN: And George, I sense that the book that you wrote with Colm Kelleher and James Lacatski, who’s going to join us soon on the program, is something you have been seeking to do for a long time. You know Skinwalker Ranch better than anybody. But tell me about your involvement with the other two.

GK: Oh my gosh, well, yeah. I mean, I was allowed to sort of be a fly on the wall. This was a secret program, they kept it close to the vest, but because of a long-term relationship with Mr. Bigelow, and with Colm, I picked up bits and pieces. In fact, on Coast to Coast, George, it was announced by Bigelow that he had this contract with an unnamed partner to study UFOs, but it was so much more. I was privileged to be allowed to know some of what was going on. The Tic Tac case, for example, we’ve all seen that video and have heard about the amazing capabilities of that craft. That was investigated by AAWSAP. That wasn’t an AATIP case. That was by these guys that we’re talking about in this book. And I’m so pleased to be able to be part of that team that produced this book. I admit, though, Colm is the guy who really carried the weight in writing this because he lived it, he lived so much of it.

GN: He did. And Colm, what will the UFO community do once this book really gets filtered out there?

CK: Well, I think I think the book really was written, as George mentioned, for a couple of different reasons. And I think each of these reasons will probably have a different impact on various elements of the UFO community. But firstly, as George mentioned, the four-year media focus that has happened since December 2017, The New York Times broke the article about the secret Pentagon UFO program. Most of the media focus has been on about 5% of what the real program was, so we really wrote the book in order to put it out there that the other 95% of the program was really an important part of it. And the genesis of this program went back to people like Jacques Vallée, Hal Puthoff, Robert Bigelow, John Schuessler, coming together and brainstorming in 2007, 2008, on what the best way of looking at the UFO topic was for this brand new program that was just coming into being. And the usual way of doing that would be to look at the metallic UFO performance, all of the sensor-driven data. But the other side of the UFO coin was the human effects, which tends to get much more messy. You know, UFOs do have physiological effects, pathological effects, sometimes medical effects. Physiological effects may include paralysis, extreme heat, cold, powerful odors, metallic taste, etc. So, once you get into measuring that kind of thing, you need sort of a pretty good analytical framework, and also, if there are medical effects, you need to have physician scientists on your staff. And that’s really where we decided to go with the AAWSAP program. Not only to have the sensor-driven data, but also to have human effects in the mix so you could have two sides of the same coin.

It goes back to the the old metaphor of the blind man and the elephant. We think that only the sensor-driven data may give you a tiny amount of the elephant’s tail. Whereas, if you get both sides of the UFO coin, you can have both the sensor-driven data and the human effects, you might have both hands on the elephant and have somewhat of a clearer picture. So, we think that the the UFO groups out there may have different reactions to the book because I think there’s a lot of complexity in the book and I think once it’s fully assimilated, I think it probably will be accepted.

GN: I think so, too and I think the public’s been waiting for something like this, Colm, for a long time. Both of you stay with us. In a moment we’re going to bring in James Lacatski, of course, a former government official. I’ll tell you all about him in a second. He’s going to join us for a few moments to talk about his role in this incredible case. Now, he’s also one of the co-authors of this book, “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon,” as well, which truly, I think, is going to rock the UFO community and it’s going to be one of those I told you sos, but it’s incredible corroboration.

Their book is called, “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, An Insiders’ Account of the Secret Government UFO Program.” That insider, of course, was James Lacatski, who’s with us. A Defense Intelligence Agency program manager, contracting officer, security coordinator, counterintelligence coordinator for the Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Application Program. That’s the one we’re talking about, a $22 million UFO research effort. Back in 2007. Jim met Robert Bigelow and Senator Harry Reid from Nevada, leading to the start of this program in 2008. Jim, thank you for having the guts to come forward and to write this book with George and Colm. It’s good to have you with us.

Dr. James T. Lacatski (JL): Thank you very much, George.

GN: What was it like to be part of this program?

JL: Well, I can’t say it wasn’t difficult at times, because in those positions, I had to keep the program, well, very tightly controlled. It was a closed program. It was almost like an unofficial SAP. Stovepipe-wise, my management knew what we were doing. But it was really me at the DIA and 100% of the contract money went to BAASS for their contractor support. And that’s not easy trying to keep, you know, people…in my own office they didn’t know what we were doing.

GN: Wow.

JL: Not at all. I mean, I heard two military officers talking about, for whatever reason, they were talking about Skinwalker Ranch. This is about midway through the program. They had no idea that 25 feet away, I was running Skinwalker Ranch, you know, interactions at that time. So that’s how tightly controlled it was. So I can’t say it was easy, but we got through it completely successful.

GN: And how many different programs were going on at the time? I mean, we had yours, the Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Application, and then the AATIP was going on with Luis Elizondo.

JL: Well, that’s not…AATIP followed…the AATIP name was created for a letter that Senator Reid sent in, trying to establish a DoD SAP for our program, for various reasons. And Lue used that name when he…and I guess it had to be in the timeframe of 2012, perhaps, that he started looking exclusively at military investigations and he used the name AATIP. Nothing wrong with that. I mean, that’s fine. But there was a difference between the two programs. Ours had $22 million dollars in funding, his had zero. Ours looked at military and civilian investigations, his looked at military exclusively. And we had, of course, contractor and subcontractor support. He had no contractor support. But he did his thing, we did ours. But I can say that in direct answer to your question, we were the only game in town, I would say from 2008 through 2012.

GN: What would you say, James, in your moments there, was the most dramatic thing that you came across?

JL: That I personally came across? That had to be what I saw at Skinwalker Ranch, when I visited with Bob Bigelow.

GN: Tell us what that was.

JL: Well, as with everything with regard (laughs) to AAWSAP, it was quite distorted through the news. And this is exactly what happened, and it’s not that complex. We went into the ranch manager’s home and sat down. Now, we were having a casual conversation. You know, I’m certainly noticing that there are twelve or more crosses and crucifixes on the wall, and I was thinking, “Hmm, Jim, I wonder if I really should have come here.” But in any case, you know, we’re having a nice conversation and then Bob and the ranch managers went into, I’d best call it a personal finance discussion, which I felt kind of awkward being there. And I kind of went into a daze, you know, just glancing around the room, seeing what’s the lay of the land in the rooms. And then this object appears, floating in the kitchen. Quite distinct. I mean, I looked away from it and it maintained its position and allowed me, I guess, actively allowed me to come back and look at it and examine it more closely. It was not a blurry vision, it was not a speck in my eye. It was there, it was about 18 inches tall, 18 inches wide, floating in the middle of the kitchen. And that kitchen is quite distinct. Its style is 1950s style so the colors of the tiles are quite distinct.

GN: Did it look like it just appeared?

JL: It just appeared. It just appeared and it was very sharp. Now, let me give you an exact description, this Möbius strip and all of this. Take a piece of spaghetti about six inches long. I’m just saying, you know, in practical terms, to form a model of it. Let it wet or boil it and let it drop and start bunching up on itself. But at the very end that you’re holding, allow it to droop downwards, and stick out. Now that was super clear, that portion of it. It was a truncated, it was a solid light yellow and it was surrounded by a different shade of yellow cloud. So, you know, I’m looking at this taking notes of what it looked like and just a few minutes ago, I looked back at my original drawing of it because I wanted to catch the impact. And, as someone, I guess, I noted to someone and they’ve repeated it (Bigelow repeated it to George Knapp), it looked very much like the cover object of Tubular Bells, the album from back, I guess it was in the 80s.

JL: Except it wasn’t chrome, it was yellow, and it was solid. Quite clear and then it got fuzzy as the droopy portion went into the cloud. And that was it. There was nothing that dramatic about it. And that’s when we went into a discussion of, you know, I made the comment, “Well, is this your decorating style?” And Jean said, “Oh, yes, this is my decorating style. Strange, though, but, you know, before you showed up, a cross flew out of the bathroom, horizontally, into the wash basket, on top of the washing machine.” So I’m thinking, “Oh, hmm.” Well that’s when we went back and we went right through where the object was, as we all went back and toured the rest of the house and had further discussions about what was going on there. So it’s not a complex story, but that’s it.

GK: Just add some context to this. Jim only made one visit on behalf of the Defense Intelligence Agency to figure out whether there was a justification for a study. He’s there on the ranch for a short period of time, he has an experience, this thing appears in the air, and only he can see it, it’s just for him. And that site, that event is what led to the creation of the program and convinced him that something was really going on. He went back to Washington, talked with Harry Reid and set this thing in motion, designed the program. He’s being too modest, I think.

GN: And George, you’ve covered a lot of stories in your career. Would you say the Skinwalker Ranch story is one of the strangest you’ve ever encountered?

GK: Oh, beyond question, there’s nothing like it. I mean, it is the singular, most-studied paranormal hotspot in the history of the world. I mean, it was the NIDS study, than the AAWSAP study and now, Brandon Fugal and his team are doing the same thing. More and more strange phenomena, none of it makes sense. All of it is incredibly weird. Sometimes it’s benign, sometimes it’s pretty nasty and it’s really difficult to get any answers to what’s going on. It’s always different, it never repeats itself and it plays mind games with the investigators, it follows people home, we can talk about that. And, you know, yeah, it’s the weirdest thing of all. But that ranch was on its game that day. It made a demonstration just for Jim Lacatski. Maybe it wanted a program, but if it had an agenda, it worked.

GN: And Jim, when you finally walked away from this program, when it ended for you, what did you feel about this entire situation over the couple of years you were doing this?

JL: Well, I didn’t really walk away. Quite frankly, we at DIA attempted to transfer to another office in the Department of Defense.

GN: Oh really? Just kind of shift it over?

JL: Yes, that was unsuccessful, mainly because we were, I think we were an intelligence office going to what I’d call, without giving away the exact title, a hardware office. And I don’t think it would have been properly placed there either. And then, we went to the Department of Homeland Security and worked with them for over a year. Ultimately, they did not accept the funding, but they were extremely helpful in tying up some loose ends from the program. Now, repetitively after that, were multiple attempts, up until a couple of months before I retired in 2015-16, we attempted to restart the program. Now, the question is, you know, there were extensive discussions in DHS…with the program…I’ll call it an AAWSAP-like program to be restarted. Because we discovered that there were certain…every aspect had to be done, there’s no doubt about that, but did the government have to do at all? In other words, could some portion, say…our interactions with MUFON were extremely successful, contrary to what you might hear. Extremely successful. They were very good. Could an organization like that have a contract to do boots on the ground research? You don’t really want government people going everywhere, it would be quite costly. So it’d be better to do it through a contractor.

GN: George, what would the late J. Allen Hynek be doing right about now with programs like this?

GK: Well, I think he would be right at the forefront. If he was able to be part of it, I think he would find this really interesting. You know, the focus so long was on nuts and bolts craft, flying saucers, if you will, and for a long time, ufology was uncomfortable, even considering the possibility that there were aliens or beings on these craft. And then, when abduction research came along, ufology sort of turned its back on that, it was just too weird. Now, we’re in a whole different ballgame. You have to follow the evidence where it leads, you know? As Jim mentioned. AATIP had a much narrower focus, military encounters with UFOs, national security-type issues. AAWSAP, was a much broader focus. They followed the evidence wherever it lead. If you had UFO sightings, you often had, or almost always had related phenomena. Whether it’s hitchhiker-type things or mutilations, or abductions or ghost-type activities, psychic effects. Colm can get into that a little bit more than I can. But, you know, it was a very expansive and energetic and visionary-type program and I would like to think that Dr. Hynek would be right there helping it if he could,

GN: We’re with George Knapp, Colm Kelleher and James Licatski, they have all written a book called “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, an Insiders’ Account of the Secret Government UFO program.” This book has just come out, it’s on Amazon. George has it hit bookstores yet?

GK: No, it’s only being sold on Amazon.

GN: Okay, great. Jim, while you were in the program. I mean, did you say to yourself, “Oh my god, what the heck is going on here? What are these things?”

JL: Umm, no it didn’t impact me like that.

GN: Why not?!

JL: It was, umm…maybe that’s why I haven’t had the extreme experiences that some of my colleagues had when, say, visiting the ranch. I was comfortable with it, already, right from the beginning. In fact, I’ve noted to people that when I am at the ranch, either physically, like that one visit, or when Mr. Fugal was electronically monitoring it for 24 hours before his first show, I had, and I told this to Bob Bigelow when we were walking through it: I have a very calm feeling at the ranch. And even when I see it, in pictures, I have a…it brings a calm feeling to me, for whatever reason. So I wasn’t disturbed by anything going on, I just wanted it to be documented. And ending up in this book, which to me, is a quasi-textbook. A reviewer, that we all know but I better not mentioned his name,  made a simple comment about this book when he saw a draft. Read the book. Now when he said that, he really meant, read it. The content…

GN: Thoroughly, thoroughly.

JL: That’s right. And he also said, “Read between the lines.” I can say right now, this book has your answers. It is complete. Just read it.

(That comment by Dr. Christopher “Kit” Green was left in the Amazon comments section for the book)

GN: Why did you decide, Jim, to go public with this?

JL: Well, we were taking a lay of the land…now it seems like…this took a 14-month review by the government, so I’d say it was about two and a half years ago. Bob (Bigelow), Senator Reid, Colm, George, we had a meeting at Bob’s business headquarters and it was: What are we going to do?! And I made the declaration, right at the time, “I think I want to write a book. You know, I’m going to need help but I think I want to write…I want to summarize what we’ve done.” And more than this book, I would like all the…because people are forgetting the 100 plus documents that were delivered to the DIA, hundreds of pages, some of them. But there’s an entire room maintained by the contractor, BAASS, Bigelow Aerospace now, of the analyst, raw data. Pictures, recordings, it’s all there. And I ultimately, at some point in the future, would like to have this put into the National Archives, because this program was complete. What particularly bothered me in a closed program like that was when all these news articles and magazine articles were saying things like, “We vetted this with so and so.” They never give their names. They never at all give it. It was a closed program! Those people didn’t know what in the world were going on and here they are talking to the press for whatever their personal reasons are. But the program was a complete success from DIA’s point of view and we wrote that up officially.

GN: James, thank you for being part of this program, thanks for being part of this book: “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon.” It was amazing that these things are going on within government, George, and other government entities don’t even know what’s going on.

GK: No, it was kept pretty quiet for very good reasons, the same reason we kept the book project quiet, because there are folks at the Pentagon who are opposed to this kind of research. There were senior people at DoD and the intelligence agencies who felt that what was going on at Skinwalker is demonic, satanic, and that by investigating it, you’re bringing evil into the world, as if we don’t have a lot of evil already. And so once it became clear outside of Jim Lacatski’s small, tight circle, what Colm and the team were investigating, people at the Pentagon kind of freaked out. There’s a religious cabal, in essence. I don’t argue with people’s religion at all, they can believe what they want, but they made policy decisions, in part, based on the belief that this was demonic, and we need to cut it off. Then there were others who were worried that if this gets out, it will be on the front page of the New York Times, which of course, it did, even if some of that story was wrong. So, you know, we kept the the book project quiet for two and a half years, it went through, as Jim said, 14 months of review by the DOPSR process, the clearance by the DoD. They’re not advocating or supporting or saying everything in the book is true, they’re just saying that they looked for classified information to make sure that we weren’t leaking any stuff. And they did make some changes and maybe Colm can tell you about the things that they made us take out.

GN: Yeah, what did they do, Colm, what did they make you take out?

CK: Well, they made us take out some fairly specific references to various offices and also some of the security-related verbiage that we use, they removed. And they also wanted to make sure that any active military people or people who are still working in the government service had their names changed. So we went through the book and essentially removed all of the different names. So all of the names that are in the book are actually pseudonyms for all active-duty service people. That includes, for example, we discovered halfway through writing the book that one of the four Tic Tac pilots from the famous Tic Tac incident back in 2004, actually is an active-duty person, so we had to give that person a pseudonym, too. So, we basically obeyed all of the dictates from the DOPSR agency, and they sent the book out to four separate agencies for review so it was a pretty thorough review and it did take, as Jim said, about 14 months because of the…I think it was because of the COVID.

GN: Would you say that the government officials were pretty fair with their review of your book?

CK: Yes, I really think that…they left in a lot of the details. Appendix One in the book is a full summary of over 100 separate reports that were delivered to the Defense Intelligence Agency, as a result of the different lines of research that were conducted during the 24-month period of the program. And they left all of the titles, all of the numerical suffixes, all of that was left in and we expected to have some of that removed but none of it was removed

GN: Colm, at this point, what do you think of Skinwalker, about the ranch?

CK: Well, I spent probably at least 250 days and nights on Skinwalker Ranch, so I’ve walked pretty well every yard of the property so I’m very, very familiar with the property. One of the things that doesn’t get a lot of attention regarding Skinwalker Ranch is that, in addition to being a paranormal Disneyland, there have been a consistent thread of sightings of metallic-looking, UFO objects on or close to the property. And that goes all the way back to the Gorman family (real name of family is Sherman) that moved on [to the ranch] in 1994, and among the other events that they reported, they reported silvery, metallic-type objects. I personally saw one of these objects that came right over Skinwalker Ridge, while I was on the property. This thing was pretty low. It came in, it looked like a jet fighter, it was moving very quickly. The only difference was that it was 100% silent, and then it executed a perfect, hairpin turn above my head, like a very, very tight hairpin turn, and then went back exactly the way it came and disappeared on a northern trajectory over Skinwalker Ridge. Axelrod, one of the main people in our book, actually photographed what looked like a metallic object over Skinwalker Ranch while he was on the property in July of 2009. And fairly recently, Brandon Fugal went on the record, the current owner of Skinwalker Ranch, saying that he had actually seen a metallic-looking object.


“Those first six months of owning it, I really saw nothing myself that would lead me to believe that there was anything unusually. Well that all changed. I had with multiple witnesses with me an occasion where we saw what can only be described as an unidentified flying object, a craft a forty, fifty-foot-long silver disc hovering right above the mesa. Right in front of us. This wasn’t just a blinking light in the sky or something that was a little bit ambiguous. This was a solid object that appeared out of nowhere could move in the blink of an eye and over a twenty second period perform maneuvers that I believe defy any propulsion physics that we’re acquainted with.”

~Brandon Fugal


CK: So there’s this strange sort of convergence of the traditional core UFO sightings on Skinwalker Ranch, and that is overlaid by all of the different other so-called paranormal events. My personal experience of the ranch was that 98% of the time, it was a beautiful, you know, Northeastern Utah property, with absolutely nothing going on. Beautiful wildlife, etc. And then for that small number of times, things definitely got weird, the atmosphere seemed to change on the property. And even the animals, the dogs that we had on the property, we used as biosensors, started acting strangely And a lot of our sensor equipment obviously was interfered with, batteries lost power, the usual sort of electrical disturbances happened. So that seems to go hand in hand with all of the attempts to monitor this activity on Skinwalker Ranch.

GN: Why do you think Bigelow…go ahead, George.

GK: George, you should ask Colm about the hitchhiker effect. It’s one of the most mysterious and alarming aspects of the study, both the NIDS study and this AAWSAP study. These people that go there and visit, take things home with them. And I know it sounds outrageous, and it is hard to believe, but it happened so many times to intelligence officers. Big, tough, strong, experienced, intel people who’ve been in combat, who go on to the property, pretend that they’re not going to be scared by what they encounter and then when they go home, all hell breaks loose and it lasts for years. Their lives are turned upside down. It’s like Poltergeist in their homes. It’s happened to Robert Bigelow, it’s happened to Colm, it’s happened to me. So, Colm, maybe you tell George about the hitchhiker effect and whether that’s real.




CK: Well, I think there’s been so many different documentations about this that I think it seems to be very real and it goes all the way back to the National Institute for Discovery Science when we were on the property for, like I mentioned, hundreds of days. Occasionally, we would experience, back in our own homes, different sort of…my family would report seeing sort of dark shadows in the house. It was all very mild until the onset of the AAWSAP program when we had five separate, military intelligence people with deep backgrounds, some of them had combat backgrounds – and they’re described in this book – set foot on the property and they all lived on the East Coast. And 100% of these people, all five of these people, at different times, brought these phenomena back to their homes on the East Coast. And it was mostly their families that started seeing and experiencing a lot of these quote unquote “paranormal effects” in their homes. Poltergeist activity, dark shadows, these small, brightly-colored, what are called orbs, in their home. It was 100% of the military people who were part of the investigative AAWSAP team, experienced all of that. Occasionally, the effects meandered out of their homes and into the neighborhoods, and in some cases, neighbors would start seeing strange effects in their homes and being completely unaware of what was happening in the original home. So, it’s almost like this effect was spreading from, originally Skinwalker Ranch, moving out to a particular home on the East Coast and then spreading further into the neighborhood. So in the book, we began to postulate that it was behaving almost like an infectious organism.

GN: And George, you said that things happen to you. What happened?

GK: Oh, I should point out that of all the times I’ve been to the ranch 26, 27, 28 (times), somewhere in that area, I’ve never seen anything. I’m like kryptonite to UFOs or whatever is there. But I have brought things home because I wanted to engage with whatever it is. So I’d bring rocks and little bits of this and that and then it finally appeared. I didn’t see it, my wife did. And as Colm mentioned, it’s often the family members who see this. The first time she saw it, it was two orbs, blue orbs, which play a big role in this book we wrote and have been seen at the ranch many times, floating over our…outside at night as she’s sitting in our courtyard. And she called me and I got there too late, they were gone. Then there was a second incident that was much more dramatic, where something came into our bedroom, and physically laid on top of her. And something similar to that happened to Mrs. Bigelow, too while she was still with us.

GN: That’s strange. Now, what is the exact tie in between the Skinwalker Ranch and the Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Application Program? What’s the tie in?

GK: Well the ranch was the inspiration for the program because Jim Lacatski had read Colm and I’s book and then went to the ranch and had his experience, went back to DC, pitched the idea to Harry Reid, who had always had an interest in UFOs and things since I first talked to him about it in 1989. And so the program was launched and the ranch was seen as a living laboratory. I don’t think they spent much money on the ranch but they did do some experiments that Colm could talk to you about, trying to interact with this, to communicate with whatever intelligence is there. They also had a really big program outside the ranch where investigators went to other people who’ve not been named, who’ve had experiences in the Unita basin and it’s a pretty big number. But Colm can tell you more about the connection.

GN: Colm, did they come to any conclusions?

CK: Since the program lasted for about 24 months and as Jim said, it basically terminated in December of 2010. That program was actually in full swing when the money no longer became available for a third year. So, a lot of the programs that were ongoing were suddenly terminated. So, I suppose that the short answer to your question was that, in terms of conclusions, we have no firm conclusions regarding what the origin of these phenomena are. But we are pretty certain that the correlations between the traditional metallic, nuts and bolts, UFO, and these human effects, including psychology, including paranormal effects, should be studied in conjunction with each other. Studying one in the absence of the other, that’s one of the conclusions that we came to. And it’s reinforced by probably 75 years of studying UFOs since the late 1940s. This is not a unique set of correlations between the so-called nuts and bolts UFOs and the human effects that erupt after a UFO interaction.

GN: And George, are we sure these programs are dead, maybe they’ve gone deep undercover?

GK: That’s an interesting question. I mean, AAWSAP was sort of killed and then AATIP emerged. It had a much narrower focus. Lue Elizondo was running that, he had some great people, sort of a sub-rosa kind of a program that was going on. He went forward and left that program because he was frustrated by all the handcuffs that were put on him. And he and Chris Mellon and a few others have really changed the whole topic. He went forward, spoke to the New York Times and other media and have caught the attention of Congress. AATIP, according to the Pentagon, was killed, but it still went on and some of the same people who are part of the AAWSAP program, were part of AATIP and then they became part of the UFO Task Force. They had a lot of experience, they advised members of Congress, they have lobbied for a new program, a new study and I think it’s probably going to happen. It’s the only issue in Washington where there’s bipartisan agreement.

GN: Let’s go to the phones and then we’ll have more phone calls after the break. Bill in Los Angeles. Hey Bill, go ahead.

Caller Bill: Hi, George. I’m sure you remember about six weeks ago on your program, I asked Bob Zimmerman, what could explain the 2004 Tic Tac? And you may recall that he claimed with almost no doubt that a modern drone could duplicate any of those maneuvers, and on a Tic Tac. And I’m wondering if George and Colm’s book does anything to refute such obvious debunkers?

CK: Well, I think the book describes the Tic Tac case, which was, you know, an original AAWSAP case, in some detail, but nothing like the extremely dense, 200-page reports that have been produced. And I think the bottom line is that all of the four pilots who visually saw this object off the coast of San Diego in 2004, were very, very certain that the behavior of the Tic Tac object defied anything that they knew about either in classified or unclassified program. So, I would point that person to all of the reports and the extreme level of analysis that have gone on with this case. It’s probably one of the most studied cases in the world.

GK: One of these days, the documents about the Tic Tac case that were compiled by AAWSAP will be made public and it’ll be pretty clear that this wasn’t a drone. We’re talking about something that happened in 2004. Seventeen years ago, we had drones that could do what that did? And where is it, where’s that technology if it’s ours? Did we have it in the 80s and the 70s, when people were seeing the same kinds of things? I think it’s preposterous.

GN: Well, we both know Bob Zimmerman, he’s a great science guest, but he will not believe in extraterrestrials. I mean, there’s nothing we can do to convince him.

GK: Yeah, that’s okay. I mean, you know, people can believe what they want, and I’m sure people are going to have trouble believing a lot of the stuff that we’ve reported. We’re reporting it accurately about what happened during the study, what happened at the ranch, and some pretty dramatic incidents way beyond the ranch. Colm is a microbiologist and really knows his stuff when it comes to these medical effects. One of the best parts of the AAWSAP study was looking at the medical effects, health effects, serious, serious effects from people who had had close encounters with what we call UFOs or orbs, I mean, major medical problems that are well documented and there are problems with HIPAA and releasing that information. But this was real, it happened and it’s really affected people’s lives. Colm, if you want to take that on.

CK: Well, the bottom line is we had two physician scientists on our staff that were capable of going to anywhere in the country. And they did follow up some of the cases that George was talking about. And you know, the bottom line was, they followed these people, these patients, after they interacted with with UFOs for months, and in some cases, years. And these patients went through some very serious medical emergencies.

GN:  Just an amazing series of work, George. You were working on this for two years plus, how did you keep it such a secret?

GK: It was tough, but we felt it was necessary. The people we’re talking about at the Pentagon who killed the program in effect, would probably not be happy about it. So we were worried about them. We’re also, you know, we didn’t do any hype, any PR, we didn’t make any announcement, we just let it come out. And that was also, in part, because there’s a phalanx of people on social media, George. I know you have a Twitter account and you pop in and out there. But if you spend much time, you know it’s incredibly negative and we just didn’t want some of the professional debunkers to have a chance to define the book before it came out. You see see them now trying to catch up and dump on it with really silly stuff. But we wanted it to just be out, let people read it first and make their own opinions. And yeah, it was tough to keep quiet about it, as Colm will attest.

CK: (laughs) I think we were very successful in keeping it quiet, only probably half a dozen people knew of its existence for the time. With the exception of the reviewers and the DoD, obviously, there was quite a few different organizations involved in that.

GN: Let’s go to the phones again. Let’s go to Brendan in Austin, Texas. Hey, Brendon.

Caller Brenden: Hey, thanks so much, guys. It is an absolute honor to be on with all of you guys. It’s an exemplary night, tonight. So I’ll be super quick. I just got to say that, before I ask my question…that I’ve seen UFOs, I’ve seen stuff on the ground. I live on native land here at the Tonkawa and Karankawa, that’s the land that was here. So, there are people that are experiencing these types of things in their home or in their town and it’s great to hear people talking about it, and maybe even get those people help. Because as George Knapp talked about, whenever it starts coming for your loved ones, it’s really hard with these experiences. So, my questions are, what techniques did you guys use and what were your goals? And are you excited to have more resources at Skinwalker Ranch? Thank you guys.

CK: Well, we went through…the AAWSAP program, especially, had multiple different programs running side by side in terms of techniques. We did spend quite a while analyzing some of the different substances that were found at some of these locations. We analyzed a series of beads from an alleged crash site. And all of this…these were contracted, chemical analysis. We also had a lot of multi-physics software analysis and one of our sort of reports that went into the DIA involved multi-physics analysis of the Tic Tac case. And that was about 150-page report. As I was mentioning earlier, we used a lot of laboratory analysis, ranging from hematology, all the way through biochemistry, and in some case, genomics, MRI analysis as we followed these different cases over months and years, And I believe that the techniques that we initiated during the AAWSAP program – especially for following these medical cases for month after month, year after year, serial-blood samples, serial MRIs – is really being followed through now with additional cases, in what Jacques Vallée would call The Invisible College, a group of scientists around the country that are devoting, sort of intensive focus on following some of these cases in the long term. And so, I think the AAWSAP program is pretty proud of what we pioneered way back in 2008, 2009.

GN: George, would you also say that these two programs AAWSAP and AATIP are confusing to a lot of people that they probably think they’re all one in the same?

GK: Yeah, absolutely. You know, the New York Times story kind of kicked that off. I think Politico did a story right around the same time and said that AATIP got the $22 million when it actually went to AAWSAP. I know that Lue Elizondo has had to dodge around that for a long time. I interviewed him a few times in 2018. The second time, when I had learned about the AAWSAP name, I said, “Hey, the first time I interviewed you, you didn’t say anything about this.” He explained, “Well yeah, it wasn’t my program. I couldn’t talk about it.” But yeah, those two programs together and then what Lue and Mellon have done, carrying the ball down the field since AATIP supposedly ended. It’s been amazing. I never thought I would live to see this kind of change on this topic. Of course, we don’t have any answers, we don’t know the big picture, we don’t know what intelligence is operating on Skinwalker Ranch. We don’t know for sure that these flying saucers, UFOs. are extraterrestrial. We don’t have any answers but if AAWSAP had been allowed to continue, up until now, for all these years, we might have at least be closer to getting some answers. It’s too bad.

GN: They just picked up some radio signals, George, from some of what they call distant planets that are so far away they can’t even find them. But they’re thinking, are they alien transmissions? You know what? Who knows, huh?

GK: Yeah. And I’m in favor of all that kind of research. You know, a lot of astronomers and the folks who deal with the SETI program are really adamantly opposed to UFO cases and research. It doesn’t seem to me that they’re mutually exclusive, you can look for both.

GN: I think so, too. Let’s go next to Jason, State of Washington, west of the Rockies. Hi, Jason.

Caller Jason: I wanted to reach out to you and George Knapp, and just honestly, come with a full heart and ask you guys, I’m a search and rescue volunteer. And I am curious, around Skinwalker Ranch, how many people have gone missing around that area? Is there a unique phenomenon there, where maybe we can discover certain types of things on our end, to learn more about this area, to expedite our expertise in the northwest, and try to perform higher and better searches? And it’s just a unique experience down in that. John Dover, who is Navajo Ranger, went through a lot of stuff down there that I’ve listened to. And I’m just curious, is there any kind of expertise and advice that you could give us up here in the northwest?

GN: Do we have a lot of disappearing cases out there, Colm or George?

CK; On Skinwalker Ranch, we had a lot of disappearing animals but there were really no cases that I ever was aware of, in the vicinity of Skinwalker Ranch, where humans disappeared. But, we had a plethora of dogs on the property that would vanish and not returned. We had cattle disappearing. Some cattle were obviously mutilated and all of that, but we had a high number of of cattle that were on the property, and then suddenly they weren’t on the property. But no humans, whatsoever, that I was aware of, that disappeared.

GN: George, should we get our friend David Paulides involved in this one?

GK: David is interested in Skinwalker Ranch and actually, some of the people involved in the AAWSAP program have wondered if there was a connection between the missing people that he’s investigated and some of the phenomena that’s been reported on Skinwalker. I don’t know the answer to that, but it’s possible. The times that I’ve been on the ranch, like Jim Lacatski, I always feel good on the property, except for the first time I was there, I was a little bit spooked, but always feel serene and comfortable. But different people have different experiences. Some people have come in, angry or defensive, are those that have the worst kind of experiences, and get spooked the most, including those those five intelligence officers that Colm told you about before. Sometimes that intelligence, whatever it is, is benign, sometimes it’s indifferent to humans who are on the property, but occasionally, it’s really mean. It’s seems to be able to figure out what people are going to do before they do it. It messes with their minds, it seems to want to scare them for some kind of an effect. It kind of gets energy out of that. It’s done terrible things to animals. There have been abductions and monsters seen by neighbors on the property. AAWSAP collected a massive amount of information about people not living on the ranch, but in the general area of the basin who’ve seen all kinds of weird stuff. It’s not just Skinwalker Ranch, it’s a big broad area that’s been seeing weird stuff for maybe 200 years.

GN: You know, the Department of Justice estimates that some 600,000 people in this country alone disappear every year. 600,000 people, they find about 4400 bodies. But where did the rest of them go, George? Are they abducted? Where do they go?

GK: Yeah, that’s a good question. I don’t know. I guess some of them could be wives escaping from husbands and husbands leaving wives and children. But it’s entirely possible that some of them are scooped up. You know, some of those cases that David has spoken to you about George, are pretty freaky, they’re scary.

GN: They sure are. Joe in the Bronx. Hey, Joseph, go ahead.

Caller Joe: I was wondering why this particular piece of land being beset by all this paranormal phenomenon. From dog men to metallic objects flying around? Does anyone care to speculate? Or, is there a hypothesis as to why? And is there anything about the history of this land that would lend itself to all this phenomenon?

CK: Well, I would say that the Skinwalker Ranch is not a unique property. It’s the entire Unita basin, in which the Skinwalker Ranch is embedded, has been subject to these phenomena, going back decades and centuries. But there are multiple, different hotspots around, that actually NIDS did some investigations on and AAWSAP was looking at a couple of these spots for the third year of operations but the AAWSAP was shut down. But places like Dulce, New Mexico, Crestone, Colorado, Yakima, Washington. There are multiple different areas and many of them seem to be adjacent to Native American reservations. Whether or not that is any way significant or not, we were never able to nail that down. But even in Norway, for example, the Hessdalen valley that has had multiple, different events happening over decades. And actually an international consortium has been studying that for quite a while. There are areas in Perm, Russia that have the same kinds of events happening. So these kinds of clusters or hotspots don’t seem to have any rhyme or reason but they all seem to have the same sort of central feature of metallic UFOs, in addition to a plethora of paranormal and other types of phenomena. They seem to co-locate, they seem to be together and one of the AAWSAP take-home messages was, we should probably study all of the above instead of isolating, sort of a rifle shot look at sensor-only metallic objects and confine the study to that because it is possible that some of the most valuable data on human effects would be missed.

GN: George, anything going through Congress that would reinvigorate these programs or get this going again?

GK: Yeah, there is legislation to create a permanent UFO study. I’m not quite sure where it’s going to land, it might be within Space Force, it might be within NASA, but that’s really encouraging that they’d be willing to put some resources into it and study this. My concern is, and probably is the same for Colm, is that they only study UFOs. The national security aspects, military encounters, that is a driving force. But I don’t know if it’s politically palpable for members of Congress to support investigating cattle mutilations, poltergeist activity, hitchhikers, all the weird stuff that was studied and investigated and documented at Skinwalker and beyond. That might be a heavy lift. But at least they’re willing to try to have a permanent UFO study and that’s a that’s a step in the right direction.

GN: I want to thank you, Colm, for being on the program again and all the support you’ve given us on our show over the years. You were last on with us about seven years ago or even longer than that? Seventeen?

CK: I think it was quite a lot longer than that. Yeah, I’ve been keeping a very low profile for probably 15 years. So, I’m kind of gradually emerging back into the life

GK: Thank you so much for having us, George, my friend and compadre and colleague. This was great. We wanted to have the first big interview here and we’re so glad that you were gracious enough to invite us.

GN: The book, folks, is available on Amazon, it is phenomenal. “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. George Knapp, Colm Kelleher, Jim Lacatski, they’re all part of the book.


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2 Responses

  1. Prof.Heinous says:

    Thanks very much for this work, Joe! This book, which I haven’t as yet read, is looking to be more and more important in the big scheme of things. I’ve been trying to catch up on Jonathon Axelrod…
    In Ingo Swann’s ‘Penetration’ “Jonathon Axelrod” admits to Ingo it’s not his real name. He seems to be an important part of the story (at least in the early Eighties), he’s supposed to be Navy, who is he? If he was big in the Eighties he’d be retired now. What dates does he operate in this book? I’m wondering if different characters are assuming this name?

    • admin says:

      I’m relatively sure it’s not the same Axelrod from “Penetration.” But I’ll try to find out!

      This is a must read book.

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