AAWSAP, George Knapp, James Lacatski, Skinwalker Ranch, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon

“Skinwalkers” Transcript: Oct. 15th – KNPR – Knapp & Kelleher: “A Shadowy Figure Physically Made Its Presence Known”

30 Nov , 2021  

“You have that database, probably the largest UFO database that exists in the world and is currently being used by the U.S. military. So yes, [AAWSAP] was completely a UFO project.”

~Dr. James Lacatski


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Joe Schoenmann (JS): Four years ago, the New York Times had a pretty astounding front page story: The Pentagon’s mysterious UFO program was part of the headline. One of the most respected papers in the world had a front page story about UFOs.



JS: And then came video of Navy pilots chasing UFOs off the California coast. More videos released by the Pentagon followed, and it was revealed that Nevada’s U.S. Senator Harry Reid had secured $22 million to look into the advanced technology of these aircraft. And nobody was laughing. TV anchors were no longer giggling and smirking at stories of UFOs. It suddenly became very real. But there is so much more to what the Pentagon has been studying that’s never been told, until now. It’s in a new book by Las Vegas journalist George Knapp, with retired ballistic missile engineer James Lacatski and Colm Kelleher. He’s a biochemist who ran the Pentagon’s program looking into the technology of unidentified aerial phenomenon. That book, “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon,” goes into how the military’s research went far, far beyond the technology of UFOs or as they call them now, UAPs. I’m talking about abductions, wormholes, gravitational studies, psychic phenomenon, invisibility cloaking, fusion technology, warp drive, stargates. Those are just a few of the topics. The book derives its name from where a lot of this began: Skinwalker Ranch, in northeast Utah, and some of the accounts of what’s still happening at that ranch are pretty terrifying. Two the books authors are with me now: George Knapp, Colm Kelleher, welcome to “State of Nevada.”

George Knapp (GK): Hey, Joe, always good to be here.

Colm Kelleher (CK): Thank you.

JS: Great to have you, George. Great to have you, too, Colm. George, I’m going to start with you first. Why is this book called, “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon.”

GK: Well, a couple of reasons for that. The genesis of this program we’re going to talk about, the acronym is AAWSAP, was started at Skinwalker Ranch. A guy from the Defense Intelligence Agency, Dr. Jim Lacatski, who’s one of our co-authors, read our book, read Colm and I’s book in 2007, passed it around to other intel people…DIA and other agencies, and it became sort of a…they developed a lot of interest in it.



GK: Lacatski, in 2007, writes to Robert Bigelow and asked for permission to visit the ranch.

JS: Talk about Bigelow really quickly. For people who don’t know him, who is he?


Knapp interviews Bigelow – Part 1


Knapp interviews Bigelow – Part 2


GK: Robert Bigelow is a highly successful, Las Vegas businessman, a billionaire. He owns the Budget Suites chain and he also created Bigelow Aerospace, which has three spacecraft up in the orbit, including one attached to the ISS right now. So, he’s a guy who has spent more money investigating UFOs and the paranormal than any person in the history of the world. Lives right here. I’m so fortunate to know him because it’s opened so many doors for me in chasing this mystery.

JS: And, by the way, in 1998, he funded a chair at UNLV, of consciousness studies, which was very interesting. It didn’t last very long, but go on.

GK: Yeah, so…Mr. Bigelow, in the mid 90s, hears about this weird ranch in Utah, Northeastern Utah, where a lot of weird stuff happens. He flies up, meets the rancher, gets the lowdown and bought the place. And then he put a team of scientists on there, and they remained there for about a decade. He owned the property for a total of about twenty years. They documented and investigated hundreds of incidents. Just weird stuff. I mean, animal mutilations, dogs vaporized, invisible entities cruising around, UFOs of many different types and colors and sizes. Shadow creatures, poltergeist activity, ice circles, the equivalent of crop circles. I mean, it’s like paranormal Disneyland, all in one place. They tried to figure it out and couldn’t. So our account of that investigation by NIDS, the National Institute of Discovery Science came to the attention of these guys in the Pentagon, they decided to go check it out. Jim Lacatski goes to the ranch with Bigelow and he has an experience. And it seemed to have been tailor made for him.

JS: I really want you to talk about that experience because it’s part of this book and I thought it wasn’t ferreted out enough. It was astounding what he saw while he’s in some building there with Bigelow

GK: Yeah, he’s in the ranch house. So there’s a main house, that’s where the caretakers for the property live – a husband and wife team – and they’re having a conversation, sitting around, and something appears inside the house, at an angle that only he can see. You might want to have Colm tell this part of the story if he can. He knows a lot more detail.

JS: Let’s do that. Colm Kelleher, talk about that, that incident.

CK: Well, according to what Jim Lacatski has told us and actually what he wrote in the book, was that he was watching the ranch manager and Robert Bigelow have a conversation in front of him, and behind them, he suddenly saw, basically out of nowhere, this 18 inch to two foot long. it looked like some kind of form of technology. It looked like a bent pipe that had several openings and it was yellow. And it appeared suddenly behind Robert Bigelow and the ranch manager. Only he could see it. So he thought he was sort of seeing things, so we looked away, look back, and this thing was still there. And it was, it had a sort of a curious, yellow cloud that it was embedded in. And the nearest approximation that he could ever come up with was a 1980s album cover by a guy called Mike Oldfield called “Tubular Bells.” And there’s a sort of metallic, sort of curved object on that cover that he related what he saw, too.



CK: So, it lasted maybe 30 seconds, as I said, he looked looked away, and he looked back at the thing, and then it just kind of vanished into the mist. But neither Robert Bigelow, or the ranch manager, were aware of what was occurring behind them. But here was this guy, an analyst from the Defense Intelligence Agency, who had not seen anything abnormal in his life, suddenly being confronted by this within 30 minutes of arriving on Skinwalker Ranch. So obviously, it blew him away and it’s sort of set in motion multiple, different steps that ended up with Licatski heading up the program at Defense Intelligence Agency and Senator Harry Reid getting involved. Robert Bigelow put in a proposal to the Defense Intelligence Agency for a contract to study UFOs, in response to a request for proposals. The organization was called Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies, won that contract. And then that began this twenty-seven month investigation into UFOs that began in September 2008 and ended in 2010, December 2010.

JS: Colm. I wonder, as I read the book, there’s a lot of technical stuff in there. But these stories, some of these stories, and I want to get into the Jennifer Witt story as well, a little bit later. But those are the things that are going to grab a lot of lay people’s attention. So I wonder if you could do sort of a character description of of Lacatski. I mean, is he the kind of person that’s given to wild fantasy? I mean, describe his demeanor, who he is.



CK: He’s a long a very long-term, ballistic-missile expert, has worked at the Defense Intelligence Agency for many, many years and prior to that, he was a contractor with the Missile Defense Agency. So this guy is the ultimate rocket scientist. His demeanor is always careful, he’s always slow, he’s extremely analytical. So, in other words, he’s not given to flight of fancies. He hopefully will be interviewed more as this book gets more traction, but he is the exact opposite of somebody who would suddenly see a bizarre apparition in the middle of a room on Skinwalker Ranch. So, I mean, there are two diametric opposites here.

GK: He was shown this thing – he’s only on the ranch a short time – it appears we’re only he can see it and it is a demonstration that had profound effects on him. It was as if the ranch was going to show him something and put him on the road to creating this program called AAWSAP.

JS: I’m going to jump ahead here then, a little bit further. In the book, you talk about people who have seen metallic objects, not necessarily only those people, but people who have seen these objects who then leave the ranch and they have…I’ll just call it an entity or a ghost or something attached to them. They have strange behavior happening in their regular lives, afterward. Can you talk about whether or not this happened to Lacatski? Cause I will bring up Jennifer Witt again, her terrifying story.

GK: I can’t say what’s happened to him.

JS: Okay, what about you, George Knapp?

GK: Yeah, it happened to me and I think Colm would tell you it happened to him and it happened to Robert Bigelow as well. I mean, these things…we had been to the property a lot of times. Colm has spent more time there than anyone I know, 250 nights, I think (Kelleher laughs), on the ranch. People who’ve been there a long time, or even sometimes they just visited once, take something home with them. One intelligence guy had dubbed it hitchhikers, because that’s what it’s like. It hikes its way along with you. Now I tried for a long time to engage with the ranch. I’d bring home rocks and little bits and pieces of this and that.

JS: You wanted it to happen.

GK: I wanted to see something because of all my visits to the property, I never saw anything out of the ordinary. Lights, one time. And finally, it happened. But again, I didn’t see it, my wife did.

JS: What’d she see?

GK: Blue orbs. We’re going to talk about blue orbs and their role in the story of the ranch and in this AAWSAP study. But, she saw ’em. She’s sitting out in our courtyard one night and sees them above her head and called to me. I was downstairs working and by the time I got there, they were gone. But she also had another entity, I mean, encounter, that was not fun. It scared the crap out of her.

JS: Describe it.

GK: Something came into our bedroom. I wasn’t there, again, but it came into our bedroom. An entity, a shadowy figure that physically made its physical presence known on her and she was pretty frightened. And the same thing happened…I think Robert Bigelow has said the same thing happened to his wife. Whether Colm wants to answer that question…

JS: Colm, what about yourself?

CK: Well, I spent probably 300 days and nights during the National Institute for Discovery Science-term, which was 1996 through 2002, on the ranch. So we had a scientific discovery process ongoing. There were mild things that happened in my home, sometimes. My wife would report sort of seeing things in the room, but nothing compared to what happened during the AAWSAP program when we had five military intelligence people who were on the ranch at different times during the AAWSAP program and 100% of those people brought something home to their homes. They all lived on the East Coast. So they would essentially…they all encountered unusual phenomena on the ranch. And then 3000 miles away, a few days later, they would have poltergeist activity, they would have paranormal effects, they would have these small, lighted orbs that were floating through the house, different colors, sometimes blue, sometimes red, sometimes white. There would be shadowy figures. They would wake up and there would be a shadowy figure standing at the foot of their bed. Very creepy stuff and it was mostly the spouses and children of the people who had been on the ranch. So, it’s as if they brought something back with them that started interacting with the family. And not only that, we had several instances of neighbors to this family who had no idea, obviously, about what was going on. But neighbors suddenly started reporting anomalous phenomena in their homes. So it’s almost like – and we talked about this in the book – it’s almost like there was something that was attached to the person on the ranch that then was transmitted to the family on the East Coast, and then out into the neighborhood. So, we speculate about the possibility of a sort of an infectious-like entity or some kind of an infectious process that occurred because we’re all more than familiar with the Coronavirus infection process and the way it can be transmitted from person to person. Well the transmission from person to person that began with Skinwalker Ranch, seemed to mimic an infectious entity.


Excerpted from “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon”


JS: Now Colm, you’re a biochemist, you have a PhD, and you were in charge of this program. When you go to the Pentagon with stories like this, and again, they spent fourteen months sending the manuscript of this book around to various agencies before it was cleared to be published. How do they look at you? Do they laugh at you? What’s their reaction? Or, are they beyond that? Do they now take this seriously?

CK: We were actually very fortunate at the Defense Intelligence Agency. The team that Jim Licatski had around him at the very start of the AAWSAP program, back in 2007-2008, happened to be very motivated and very open minded. So, the way the AAWSAP program was originally constructed, the decision was made to look at not only the nuts and bolts and performance characteristics of these metallic UFOs, but also human effects. And human effects bleeds through a lot of different phenomena, frankly. Physiological effects, pathological effects, medical injuries, going all the way through psychological effects, and then ending up in what we call paranormal effects that seem to erupt in people who have experienced UFOs. So the Defense Intelligence Agency team, and the Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies with Robert Bigelow at the head, made the decision to study, during this program, all aspects of the UFO phenomenon, not just the metallic objects, performance characteristics, the sensor-driven stuff, but all of it. And that decision essentially was supported at Defense Intelligence Agency. So we transmitted about 100 separate reports during this twenty-seven-month program to the Defense Intelligence Agency. Many of those reports contain very analytical physics and engineering, but many of the other reports contain descriptions of paranormal phenomena of strange creatures. So there was a mixed bag of reports that ended up in the Defense Intelligence Agency and it’s basically a case of following the data. I mean, we were not trying to promote a particular worldview, we were essentially following the data.

JS: Speaking of data, as a result of what you did over two years with this funding…it said in the book [that] you probably have the largest database in the world of phenomena, not just UFO phenomena. I wonder, in your mind, Colm – you’re a scientist, and that’s where you you’ve made your bread and butter – is this kind of activity you’re talking about, people have put into books: ghosts, spirits, that kind of thing. But I wonder if you think, one day, or if we’re on the verge of describing it through physics, do you think that’s what’s going on here?

CK: I think there’s a lot of advances being made in quantum physics. There’s a lot of advances being made in, believe it or not, different ways of looking at human consciousness and the how the brain processes information. So, I think there’s a convergence sort of coming and mainstream physicists now are looking at things like non-local phenomena and quantum entanglement. And so it’s not as bizarre and weird as it used to be. Mystics used to talk about what what actually physics talk about now in terms of quantum entanglement. So it’s no longer sort of in the realm of mysticism, it’s much more in the realm of mainstream physics, and actually mainstream psychology and biology pertaining to consciousness.

JS: Scott in Las Vegas has a question. Welcome to the program.

Caller Scott: The premises is this kind of the government keeping secrets. I’ll say, and this is a statement..I don’t feel they’re keeping secrets and here’s why. I want to see George knew about a patent they had filed on a familiar triangle craft back in 2012. I mean, I don’t believe they’re hiding it anymore. I think at this point it’s more people just don’t believe anything that’s going on. So I kind of want to get George’s take on that.

JS: Okay, well first, are you talking about anti gravitational patents?

Scott: Yeah, they actually, if you go into Google,

GK: Yeah, there’s one that’s fairly recently. A guy named Dr. Pais, who had filed this anti-grav craft patent. There is no anti-gravity that we have. You can file a patent and not be able to build it. And engineering folks, experts who’ve looked at this, don’t think it can be built or that it would do what Dr. Pais hopes it could do. We don’t have anti-gravity technology, we’ve been trying to get it for a long time. But it would be great if we had it, that would be a huge story. But we don’t. I mean, that’s according to the folks who work at these three-letter agencies ,who Colm and I have been able to interact with for a long time.

Scott: In order to file a patent with the U.S. Patent Office, though, doesn’t the technology…they won’t take a patent on pseudo-technology or non-proven technology?

GK: I think there’s a lot of patents that are filed that never come to fruition, that they’re never built. We have triangular craft, we don’t have triangular craft that have anti-gravity, to my knowledge. If we did have it, that would be great. But we didn’t have it in the 1990s, we didn’t have it when the Tic Tac incident happened, we didn’t have it in the 70s or 80s when all these dramatic UFO cases unfolded, [and we didn’t have it] in the 40s, 50s. There’s a long history of UFO activity and what appears to be anti-gravity technology in our skies. We don’t have it. We didn’t have it then, I don’t think we have it now. And you could file a patent without actually building something.

JS: It’s got you had a question about Skinwalker Ranch.

Yeah, so Bigelow, when he did his investigation in the 90s, what happened to that information?

GK: Well NIDS is a private organization, of course, so a lot of what he gathered, he kept. A lot of what he investigated, he and his team, was reported in our book, “Hunt for the Skinwalker book. We didn’t hold anything back, he didn’t tell us, “Well, you can’t tell people about this or that.” We basically told the story of that investigation. A lot of the things that he did, they studied, for example, alien abductions. He gave money to a lot of different investigators. Dr. John Mack and and people like that, Stanton Friedman, Linda Howe investigating cattle mutilations. Colm could answer this better. But they did a lot of really cool investigations into weird topics and then they put it out, they published it, they had a website to put out a lot of it. So there might be some interesting stuff from NIDS that hasn’t been made public, but in general, it’s out there.

Caller Reid: I grew up in Roosevelt, Utah, which is Skinwalker Ranch adjacent. Why do you think that the locals, where I grew up, say so little about Skinwalker Ranch? I started in radio, we said nothing on the radio about it. When you go to newspapers.com and look at the old Unitah Basin Standard, there’s been precious little written about it out there. The attention is always from out of town, and not from any of the locals. And the locals don’t even talk about it.

GK: Well, I know that there is a great deal of interest. Why they don’t talk about it, I don’t know. I know I went to a conference and spoke at a conference where there were 500 people in Vernal, about a month and a half ago, so there was a lot of local interest. I know when NIDS fanned out across the basin to try to find people who had seen different things, they got a bunch of them. They had no problem finding people. I forget what the estimate was, but something like eight out of 10 people who live in that basin have seen stuff over the years. Reid, as you know, it’s a rural community. maybe people don’t like to spill the beans about this stuff. But they know, and after the first book came out, I mean, the place was swarmed by locals. They would take their dates out to the edge of Skinwalker Ranch on a Friday night and kind of scare the girls and scare the guys, too, I suppose. It was kind of sort of a rite of passage. Why there hasn’t been more coverage there, I don’t know. But maybe Colm could tell you a little bit more about the number of people in that basin who’ve been investigated and interrogated by his teams.

JS: Colm Kelleher, that is a good question. What does that look like? Give an estimate. The number of people in that area – very, very rural – who you think might have seen or experienced something related to Skinwalker Ranch?

CK: Well, as George was mentioning, we did create a database that was specifically focused on the Skinwalker Ranch surroundings. And Skinwalker Ranch is embedded in the Uinta Valley, which is a much, much larger area of land. And there was a retired high school teacher who lived in Roosevelt, called Junior Hicks who, together with a professor from the University of Utah, Frank Salisbury, went around and interviewed a lot of people in the Uinta Basin. And he actually published a book in the 1970s called “The Utah UFO Display,” which was a very well put together compendium of what Junior Hicks had discovered. Long story short is that within the Unita Basin, there are hundreds and hundreds of people who have actually seen these metallic objects and had unusual encounters up close. In fact, Junior Hicks told me one time that he distilled thousands of different reports into about 400 cases that were all to do with close encounters, visual, by multiple witnesses out of thousands of different reports that he’d received since about 1950. So this is not a recent phenomenon. And so the National Institute for Discovery Science database was was put together over about eight years and interestingly, the AAWSAP, program as part of the large scale database program that we had, incorporated the entire National Institute for Discovery Science database into it and it is one of the many databases inherent.

JS: Colm Kelleher, as I noted, the Pentagon’s research into aerial phenomena was huge news in 2017, videos came out and we saw these military pilots sort of expressing almost glee at seeing these, chasing these UAP or UFOs. What does this book change or add to the story of the Pentagon’s research into the tech and into everything else?

CK: Well, the 2017 New York Times article described a small program that was essentially focused on military pilot encounters with UFOs. So, the media since 2017, all the way through, actually, the publication of this book, has focused on that tiny little sliver of what the real problem was about. The purpose of writing the book was really to correct the record because 95% of what the AAWSAP was involved with has never been made public until the publication of this book. So the media coverage has been extremely tiny. And so the purpose of the book, essentially is to correct the record and show that the AAWSAP program is actually a very, very large scale program. It employed fifty full time people, everything from PhD-level scientists, to engineers, database experts, analysts, translators. And these were all working full time in Las Vegas on this program. So this was not a think tank, it was not a paper exercise. It was a full time, boots on the ground investigation of UFOs. And that was certainly not covered in the media between 2017 and about 48 hours ago.

GK: The New York Times got the story wrong. I mean they got a lot right. There was a program called AATIP that came about after AAWSAP was gone but AATIP did not get $22 million. AATIP is not who did the investigation of the Tic Tac, for example, that was AAWSAP. AAWSAP got the money through their support of Harry Reid, got the $22 million. Colm personally hired more than 50 people, investigated their backgrounds, they had to get clearances. The first person he interviewed to be hired there was a naval aviator who had been involved in the Tic Tac case, who at the end of the interview goes, “Hey, by the way, there’s a really interesting case that happened in 2004, off the coast of San Diego.” And that’s when this new agency, AAWSAP, was off and running to figure it out. And they did a really in depth study that has now been popularized by the New York Times and other media, but they got it wrong. For the last couple of years, Colm and Jim could not speak about this stuff, they had security clearances, they could not speak publicly about it. So, I was allowed to go ahead and tell some of these stories, the stuff about hitchhikers, and people probably thought it was crazy or making it up. Or people taking stuff home or all the other weird phenomena out there. I was allowed to talk about it to try to correct the record but this book is really what does it for the first time.

JS: Colm Kelleher, as George has said, this book to me is sort of a history, in a way, of what was behind the story that came out in The New York Times, and it correct a lot of the information that came out. It lays the groundwork, in a way, and kind of denotes the seriousness of what’s been happening. The book talks about this massive database of UFO phenomenon, psychic phenomena, close encounters, abductions, and a lot more stuff. And the book says it’s in use by the military, the Pentagon. How are they using this?

CK: Well, the data warehouse, which we call that, [is] comprised of eleven separate databases that were collected for different purposes. Some of the eleven databases focused on current cases that were being investigated by the BAASS investigators. Others were historical databases. Others were databases that were focused on, say, the United Kingdom government release of UFO files. But all of it was merged into a format that was extremely, rigorously scrubbed in order to eliminate any of the sort of less credible cases or the chaff, basically. So the data warehouse was submitted to the Defense Intelligence Agency as a deliverable as part of the AAWSAP program. And obviously, we’ve heard sort of through the grapevine that this database is now in use with what has become the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force. And the database is extremely useful because it’s very modular, so you can take what you want from the database without sort of mucking around with the rest of it. And you can also very easily layer analytical, artificial intelligence interrogator functions on top of the database. And we’re hearing through the grapevine, that aspect of the AAWSAP database is proving to be useful.

JS: George Knapp, you just heard Colm Kelleher talk about how they’re still using this information, they’re probably still using it. The program was supposed to be two years. In the book, you talk about how there were extensive attempts to get more and more funding to keep doing stuff like this. But the book kind of hedges a little bit it. It says the program’s over, but is it, really? I mean, how could you stop a program like this, which was bringing forth, through scientific analysis, so many unusual occurrences and things that are obviously, potentially, national threats?

GK: Well, AAWSAP program is over. We know that for sure because the money was cut off. The fifty or so employees that they had out at Bigelow Aerospace under the acronym of BAASS, that’s done, that was cut off. We can get into the reasons why the money was cut off, if you want. But AAWSAP, in essence, was modeled after NIDS. NIDS begat AAWSAP, AAWSAP begat AATIP – sorry for all the acronyms – and some of the same people who worked on all of those became the what we call the UAP Task Force. So, I’ve told you before Joe, on this program and conversations we’ve had privately, that when it comes to UFOs, all roads lead Las Vegas because of Harry Reid, and Robert Bigelow. And the work that was done here, led to the UAP Task Force and is soon going to lead to what looks like a permanent study to be funded by Congress, maybe in the next year or so. Where that’s going to end up we don’t know.

JS: Permanent study of what?

GK: Of UFOs. They’re going to be looking primarily at military encounters with UFOs, not the broad spectrum of weird stuff.

JS: Congresspeople are going to openly say, “We’re giving millions of dollars to study UFOs”?

GK: I haven’t seen a budget proposal yet, you would think it would need millions of dollars. It will either be established, I think, in NASA or maybe within Space Force. But the legislation…it’s maybe the only bipartisan issue in Washington that people can agree on, is the Congress has said, “We want to study UFOs and we want to set up a permanent program.” That is all linked directly back to what started here in Las Vegas.

JS: Do you understand why? That sounds like a sea change to me, that people in Congress…when Harry Reid got this funding, it was sort of done, almost, you know, it was open, but it was secretly. And now you have congresspeople, according to you, who will willingly come out and say we want to give millions, or however much money it is, to study UFOs. Why has that happened?

GK: A lot of hard work by Lue Elizondo, Chris Mellon, TTSA, Tom DeLonge’s organization. They took it to the New York Times. And although the New York Times did make some mistakes about AATIP and the $22 million, the fact that the paper of record put this on the front page and said, “There’s a secret study, it went on and collected some incredible information,” caught the attention of other media. They followed suit, they put front page stories of their own together, the network’s followed, and that gave cover to members of Congress to go ahead and say, “Yeah, I’d like to know more about this.” By January of 2018, after that [NY] Times story came out, members of Congress, senior staff members from a couple of committees, the intel committee and armed services, were getting briefings, they were demanding them. So folks involved with what we now call the UAP Task Force would take witnesses, pilots, people like that, over to Capitol Hill, have these closed door briefings and the members were blown away. A guy who was involved with the AAWSAP program and later the UAP Task Force, is the one leading those briefings and he’s tried to spearhead a new program that would dig even further and not just limit itself to UFOs, but all the other phenomena to come along, and I think it’s stalled a little bit. But it looks like that legislation is gonna pass, we will have a permanent program and that’s a great step.

Caller Dave: Hi, this is for Mr. Knapp or Mr. Kelleher. I read the Skinwalker Ranch book and it sounds like this follow up is also along the same lines, studying or bordering the study of the occult. And it’s been reported already that there’s a fundamentalist pushback in the Pentagon and high levels of the government, against studies of UFOs. And I’m wondering if either of the two gentlemen know people, or know of people who know people, who are trying to push this back or squelch this because of these fundamental, Southern Christian beliefs that are impeding this.

JS: George and I have talked about this on the last program so I’m going to turn this question to Colm Kelleher. Colm, what about the question of people in the Pentagon who say, “Let’s just not touch this,” because…for spiritual reasons, religious reasons, things they don’t want to know, or they don’t want to open the door to, let’s not go there. Have you gotten that kind of pushback?

CK: As we went through the terminal parts of the Defense Intelligence Agency program that terminated in 2010, there were was additional levels of funding secured, and there was a search on four different organizations that could, essentially, house the program, a new version of the AAWSAP program. So, I personally came across a lot of rumors about that, however, I can’t honestly say that I have direct experience of these people who were using religious beliefs to squash this program. I heard rumors to that effect and I honestly don’t know to what extent these rumors were true.

JS: George Knapp, how ’bout yourself?

GK: So the information I had collected was that there was pushback for two reasons. Call it a cabal within these different agencies, including DIA. There were leadership changes during the course of this program, and different people came in and it was stovepiped. So most people at the Pentagon had no idea this was going on, and that was for a good reason, because they didn’t want somebody swooping in and stealing the budget, or they didn’t want to have a big UFO scandal. There was two reasons for the pushback, according to information that I was given. One is, there were senior leaders there, when they found out all the weird stuff that was being investigated, they thought, “Oh my gosh! If this gets out, it’ll be on the front page of the New York Times!” Well, it was on the front page of New York Times, just not all of it. And the world did find out about it and I imagine it made people pretty uncomfortable. There is a group, within the Pentagon, at senior levels, different agencies, who are religious fundamentalists, who felt that what was going on at the ranch was demonic, satanic, evil, and that we shouldn’t mess with it. And that was what was conveyed to me. Now, how much of it was killed because of the religious fundamentalists? How much of it was worried about being embarrassed if the story got out? I don’t know, but AAWSAP was killed [and] they did run into a lot of pushback. It started in June of 2009. Senator Harry Reid wrote to the Deputy Secretary of Defense and wanted to take this program [and] make it into an SAP, a Special Access Program, so it would be under even less scrutiny, that even fewer people would know about it, and they wouldn’t have to fight every year to keep their budget. However, when that letter was sent, as we detail in the book, somebody leaked it, somebody leaked it out and suddenly everybody at the Pentagon was aware that what these guys were doing, this flying saucer study, monsters, werewolves, things of that sort. And it was killed.

JS: You mentioned the fact that there might be this cabal in the Pentagon, different agencies talking about the potential for this to be demonic. And now, I understand where that might come from. Think about fiction, think about the history of mankind and where stories of phenomenon like this come from and what people have believed. So it’s not a stretch for me to think that people believe that but I do want to ask you this question and I think you have an answer to this, at least a belief. What is it?

GK: Yeah, I don’t know. You know, when I first heard that story about people at the Pentagon thinking was demonic, I thought that was preposterous.

JS: But think about the movie, “Poltergeist,” think about all those things.

GK: Yeah, I know. You can’t make national defense policy based on your religious beliefs, or you shouldn’t. That’s what I was thinking. But now, you have to look at it…we don’t know what it is, none of us know what it is. Maybe it is demons or the equivalent of demons. I think it’s something that’s always been here with us, I don’t think it’s extraterrestrial. The technology that they’ve demonstrated, as Jacques Vallee, a friend of Colm and I has said: “It can bend space time,” which means they can be from anywhere. They can be extraterrestrial, interdimensional, all of the above, or they can live here. Which, I get the feeling that it’s been here and that’s just my sense, but whatever it is, it lives here. It’s been here as long as we have, probably longer, and it lives among us. You know, we like to say, “If [the government knows] the truth about UFOs, we’re ready hear it, let us have it, we can handle it.” Maybe so. But the broader picture is going to be less easy to handle. If people realize that there’s something living among us that can enter our reality at any time it wants and mess with us, and often play mind games and do things that harm our health and can see us all the time, like Santa Claus. It can see us in the shower, it knows when we’re sleeping and knows when we’re bad or good. That’s kind of freaky. If you have to say that to the American public, I think there’s a lot of people that aren’t going to be able to handle it.

JS: (laughs) Yeah, I don’t want to hear this (laughs). A lot of people won’t want to hear it. Maybe that’s what Santa Claus is based upon. We’ve got to talk about the blue orbs. You mentioned your wife saw one but in the book, there’s a very specific story of a scientist in Georgia, with his daughter, driving their car. The daughter sees these three lights, baseball sized, off in a field. Two of the lights come toward them, one of them goes right through the car, goes right through the shoulder of the man. What happens after that?

GK: Well, I’ll tell you what. I’ll tell you some context about the blue orbs and then allow Colm to tell that story. But on the Skinwalker Ranch, during the NIDS study and era, these blue orbs were seen often by the rancher and his family. They had seen white ones, they saw red ones that messed with their livestock. These blue ones would approach, they looked like a little bit bigger than a softball, made out of glass, with a blue, swirling liquid inside. The rancher and his wife had seen a lot of crazy stuff [and they weren’t easily frightened by that point. But this thing literally drove them to their knees when it got close to them. As if it activates the flight or the fear center in their brain. So the blue things were bad news, blue meanies. And the ones that were talked about in the book, I’ll let Colm tell that story because it’s spooky.

CK: Yeah, what you were mentioning about the three objects in the in the field. The biotechnologist was approaching Bend, Oregon, and as you said, these three, small baseball-sized objects came into…two of them came into the car. One of one of them went through his left shoulder, exited his right shoulder and then went back out through the window of the car. But within probably less than twelve hours, he began to feel really bad. He started having headaches, the left side of his face started getting…it was almost like he had severe sunburn on the left side of his face. His left eye started watering up and started swelling up. [He] couldn’t hear out of his left ear, he started losing hair within 24 to 48 hours after this incident, and came down with a lot of nausea. And obviously, when you take a look at this series of events, first thing you think of is some kind of non-ionizing radiation. And we had we were very lucky to have two physician scientists who were “on call,” quote unquote, that could go out and apply their medical knowledge in these cases. So in this particular case, one of our MD PhD physician scientists followed this person through multiple months and actually years, including serial blood samples, documenting change in the immune system, after the encounter. And there was a whole series of events that sort of cascaded into having a rare form of cancer appearing right in the track of where this thing went through his body. And so luckily, this was not a life-threatening cancer. So it was actually resolved. But again, the deep-dive focus was one of the techniques that AAWSAP pioneered in order to be able to follow this case through months and years. And that’s the only real way of of sort of approaching this kind of thing. The blue orbs, we encountered several cases of blue orbs having damaging effects on people’s health, so obviously, if you see a blue orb, just walk the other way because it’s generally (laughs) not good for your health.

JS: (laughs) Boy, we don’t have a lot of time left. I wanted to really get into the men in black. There’s this holler you guys talk about in the book and Kentucky townsfolk see a UFO, men in black show up in three, black SUVs, they’re wearing black suits, black sunglasses. They get on [top of] an SUV and say, “Don’t talk to anybody about this.” George, ten seconds. Are those days over?

GK: I don’t think so. That wasn’t that long ago. I think whatever these men in black were, they used bribery, they electrified that town, I think. Colm, is that right?

CK: Yeah, they did. Actually this was one of these hollers in Kentucky, I believe. It was where they had not being electrified in decades.

JS: So they gave them electricity. Keep your mouth shut and we’ll give you electricity.

GK: Yeah.

Audio ends there…


In my opinion, “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon” is one of the most important UFO-related books in a very long time. It shows us the direction we need to head if we want to have any chance of understanding the phenomenon.

Alternative cover by Uplifting Tweets


© Joe Murgia and www.ufojoe.net, 2018-2021. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Joe Murgia and www.ufojoe.net with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.

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