AAWSAP, George Knapp, James Lacatski, Skinwalker Ranch, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon
“Maybe one of the keys to us taking the next step in the UFO investigative scenario would be to start looking at consciousness in a new way. And maybe from that, there will be new avenues of research..”
~Dr. Colm Kelleher
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October 29th, 2021
Whitley Strieber (WS): This is Whitley Strieber and this is Dreamland. You’ve reached the edge of the world. We’re going to depart from our usual format on Dreamland this week. First, both subscribers and free Dreamlanders will get to see the entire show. There will be no commercial interruptions, but I will remind you over the course of the show, as usual, to get the book we’re going to be talking about which is “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon: An Insider’s Account of the Secret Government UFO Program” by James Lacatski, Colm Kelleher and George Knapp. As you will see, this book breaks new ground and it is arguably among the very most important UFO books ever written. We’re going to have quite a time today, so everyone get ready and prepare to learn some very extraordinary and very new things about what has happened behind the scenes as the government struggles with the strangeness of the world in which we live. Let me start by talking a little bit about Dr. Lacatski so that you know who he is. He will not be with us today. He was an intelligence officer serving in the Defense Intelligence Agency’s Defense Warning Office. He was a team leader for writing the annual missile defense threat environment series, which is a secret-level threat document used by the Missile Defense Agency. He’s been employed by the Defense Intelligence Agency since 1998 and has become involved in this truly extraordinary program that we’re going to be talking about today. Now to my guests, who are actually here. Colm Kelleher, to many of you, will need no introduction. But to some of you, you’ll never have heard of him because he sort of went underground, I guess would be the best way to describe it. After publishing a book called, “Hunt for the Skinwalker” in 2006, which put the Skinwalker Ranch, then owned by Robert Bigelow’s National Institute for Discovery Science, on the map, we had an interview with him on Dreamland in 2006. I listened to parts of it a little while ago, and it was amazing to hear these two young fellows chirping away at each other. But that’s been a while. In any case, Colm has a had a long career and I’m going to let him tell us a little bit about it because I’m not absolutely sure how you want to approach it. But suffice to say, he’s been with Bigelow Aerospace now for a long time and has been absolutely central to not only most of what Bigelow Aerospace does, what it has done and still does, to an extent, at the Skinwalker Ranch, but also much more. And he is a leading figure in the creation of this book. George Knapp literally needs no introduction because I’m sure that most of you listen to him every Sunday night. And if you don’t, you certainly should on Coast to Coast AM’s Sunday night show. He has a bachelor’s in communication, a master’s in communication, he’s taught speech, he has been in Las Vegas since 1979. He started out there, it says in his bio, as a taxi driver. I presume you’ve gone past that now (laughs)?
George Knapp (GK): Yeah, yeah. I was the worst taxi driver in history. So yeah, I moved on.
WS: Well, I would have been, too but they wouldn’t hire me in New York. They detected danger. In any case, he works now at KLAS-TV and he is the chief reporter for the I-Team investigative unit. He has received Edward R. Murrow awards, he has gotten a DuPont award from Columbia University, the Peabody twice, 28 regional Emmys. UPI selected his 1990 series about UFOs as the best in the nation for individual achievement by a journalist. In other words, two remarkable men are here with us and they have done something quite remarkable, which is to publish this book. And let’s begin, if you will, Colm, by telling us about the program that the book is about. How it began, and what it was intended to do.
Dr. Colm Kelleher (CK): Well, the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program, which is quite a mouthful – it’s probably the only time I’m going to say that…also known as AAWSAP – really came about through a series of, I would say, happenstances. And without tooting our own horn, I think we can say that the book, “Hunt for the Skinwalker” that George and I wrote back in 2005, was in some way a trigger for this whole sequence of events. So just very briefly, it turned out that James Lacatski and one of the central figures in this book – we call him Jonathan Axelrod, who has had many, many experiences – both of them read the book in 2007 and Lacatski became interested in all of this diverse activity that was happening on Skinwalker Ranch and wondered, “Should the Defense Intelligence Agency take a look at this with respect to threat, and maybe a threat analysis?” So a lot of events happened after that. He wrote a letter to Robert Bigelow and Robert Bigelow invited him to go on Skinwalker Ranch. While on the ranch, and I’m talking about literally, Lacatski was on the ranch for two hours, and during that time he had sort of a life-changing experience in the kitchen of the manager’s home, in which Robert Bigelow and the ranch manager were discussing mundane affairs in the kitchen. And right behind them, out of nowhere, this…what looked like a device, a metallic-looking device, appeared in the thin air. Lacatski looked at it, looked away, looked back at it, and it was still there. But that was sort of a seminal event. He left the ranch thinking, “Wow, something is very, very strange going on here.” So he connected again with Axelrod and there was a small team at Defense Intelligence Agency that really became interested in taking a look at that. And then meanwhile, Robert Bigelow and Senator Reid got into action. Long story short, a request for proposals was put out through what was then known as FedBizOpps, but is now known as SAM.gov, in which all of the RFPs (Request for Proposals) are put out for general view from DoD to NASA, etc. So an RFP went out, several companies expressed interest to DIA, a newly formed organization under Robert Bigelow called Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies put in a proposal. BAASS won the proposal for the AAWSAP contract. So the AAWSAP contract was a $22 million contract over a two-year period, which actually turned out to be a 27-month period, to look at UFOs from a threat-analysis perspective. Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies put in several different components of that proposal, some of which DIA rejected and some of which they accepted. But then the contract was issued, and work began in September of 2008. The program ran for 24 months, and then was given a three-month, no-cost extension, which terminated in December of 2010. That’s kind of a very brief thumbnail sketch.
WS: In a moment, George, I’m going to be asking you about your level of participation in this because you’re a journalist and not a scientist, and so you have a different perspective. But before we do that, I would like to observe that what Dr. Lacatski first saw at the ranch was a device and he had gone there because of an interest in, basically, whether or not there was technology involved in this that we could use. And he sees a device. Now he doesn’t recognize the device, but there seems to be a…and I’ve never been to the ranch for personal reasons we’re not going to discuss today. I’ve never asked. But in any case, this was as if something at the ranch was aware of exactly what his level of interest was and was communicating with him in some way. I find that fascinating. One of the pushbacks that I’ve heard recently on the internet was that this program wasn’t really intended to be about UFOs and Dr. Lacatski, on your site, on Mystery Wire, answers that very fully. George, I wonder if you could just let us know what his position was.
GK: Well, he was a literal rocket scientist. He analyzed rocket technology for DIA, he was a hands on intelligence analyst. He’s a brilliant man with two PhDs. We’ve heard Harry Reid make oblique references to Dr. Lacatski over the years. Colm and I, of course, got to know him pretty well, Colm more than me. And he’s a pioneer, he wasn’t afraid of any of the spooky nature of the phenomena in order to go forward and study it. He’s courageous and brilliant and if not for him, we wouldn’t be sitting here talking about it. The idea that this was not a UFO study is sort of perpetuated on Twitter by people who don’t want it to be true, but they’re wrong. Harry Reid secured the funding based on this being a UFO study. Dr. Lacatski, who designed it and who managed it, says it’s a UFO study. Robert Bigelow, who got the project contract says it’s a UFO study. He said that on Coast to Coast, a week after he signed the contract if people had been paying attention. Dr. Kelleher, who managed it from the BAASS side, Dr. Hal Puthoff, who was a scientific adviser to it, they all say it’s a UFO study. Twit-fologists can’t accept that, but that’s too bad for them. But it wasn’t just a UFO study, that was sort of the starting point. The brilliance of this program was it was willing to follow the evidence wherever it led, and it led to some pretty strange stuff. UFOs was the starting point, but as they pursued these investigations, with probably the biggest UFO program staff in the history, maybe of the world, they saw that there was definite angles on this related to UFOs, phenomena that was on the periphery of UFO encounters, that was really strange. Poltergeist-type activity, cryptid creatures, for example, cattle mutilations, things of that sort. Really significant, deleterious harmful effects on people who got too close to these things, Whether it’s orbs or craft or whatever. They were willing to follow the evidence, not just look at that narrow frame of funny objects that are dangling in the skies, which I feel could be sort of a distraction from the real truth of it. But follow the evidence wherever it lead. There has never been a program like this, there may never be another one again because…you know, what politician is going to step up to the plate and say, “I want to put money forward to study poltergeists and Skinwalker Ranch”? It’s unlikely to happen. These guys were courageous enough to pursue the evidence. What they produced in two and a half years is remarkable. We wanted to tell the story. We’ve been working on the book for about two and a half years, there was a fourteen-month period in there where we had to undergo a review by DOPSR, that process, to see if there’s any classified information. And in that time, we also didn’t want to put out hints that the book was coming, because we were concerned that some of the people out there in Twitter land would try to poison the well, if they knew it was coming. And sure enough, we made a little list of the people who would likely do that and our list was 100% accurate. But at least they didn’t get a crack at it before the book came out.
WS: I sometimes wonder about the locomotion behind these people. I know exactly…probably I could write down the same list. Are they just people who have made a commitment to the idea that this is all ridiculous and bunk? Or, is there some deeper locomotion there, somewhere? And I include the possibility of religious motivations, of intelligence motivations, either somewhere in the United States, U.S. intelligence community or the Air Force, even. As always, there are many Navy personnel mentioned here but not many Air Force personnel and I know the rivalries very well, I’ve lived that, coming up in an Air Force family as I did. Not my father, but my cousins were all Air Force. Colm, this question of motivation of these people, what how do you respond to that? They’ve been part of your life for a long time.
CK: Umm, I don’t personally subscribe to any social media, which I guess has been sort of a saving grace because I have not seen, to the extent that George has, the sort of back and forth with Twitter and with Facebook. So, I honestly…I know some of the players just by reputation [but] I really don’t have a full picture on who these people are, or what their motivations are. I I’ve been sort of sequestered away in the aerospace world for the last, probably eight years after the termination of the AAWSAP program. So I’m kind of sort of getting an education in the last week or so since the book came out. And yeah, it is interesting to see the reactions, they really run the gamut. But I really don’t have a perspective on who these people are or what the motivations are.
GK: I do. I have some.
WS: Yeah, I know you do and I was just gonna ask you for sure.
GK: You know this, as well as and better than most. In the UFO field, there are people who say they want truth, but they want to make sure it’s their truth. They don’t want it to be somebody else’s truth. So it’s a turf war kind of a thing, for some of them. Some of them, I think, are failed ufologists who have discovered it’s way easier to be a comedian on Twitter, or to be a crank, or a spoilsport, or a jerk, than it is to actually be on the other side and do the hard work. It’s easier to make fun of something and nitpick about it than it is to be out there boots on the ground and dig stuff up. And then some of them, I think, are operatives. I think there are people out there who are working in concert with someone to discourage public interest in this stuff and it’s been that way for a long time.
WS: And one has to wonder what the motivation would be and it gets back to the original question of whether or not this is threat related. And if it is, could it be weaponized on our side? Any of these phenomena? And I think that might be a very sensitive question. I’m not sure. But it must have been part of the motivation for starting the program in the first place. Colm, you’re nodding.
CK: It was. I mean, even the name of the program, which is the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program.
GK: See, you said it again.
CK: (laughs) Yeah, that’s right. So yes, the intent was to look at these objects, that were not identified, from the perspective of threat and the threat to national security. Now, the targeting of the money went directly to Defense Warning Office, and the name of the program was specifically designed in order for that funnel of money to end up at DWO because, as you know, a lot of different things can happen to a funnel of money once it gets into a pipeline and once people get to hear about that there’s been an appropriation made. So, the targeting of AAWSAP to DWO was specific. And that’s another reason why AATIP could never have got that $22 million, because the name, AATIP would not have been the target of that $22 million, ever, and it would not have been in the DWO.
WS: So let me ask you this, George. Could it be fear that is causing this level of resistance to this whole subject? I was watching one of the late night shows the other night, I forget which one, and they were yucking it up about UFOs. They had one of the skeptical physicists on who was saying that the Tic Tacs were birds and things. And I thought to myself, “This is slightly insane. It’s not entirely sane.” And you have your finger on the culture. And the reason I keep coming back to this, is that this book represents a major step forward in understanding a connection between what the government is trying to do – and I say that in the broadest possible term – in response to the presence of the paranormal in the world. And the culture has to come along with it somehow. Because you’ve gone, Colm, you and Dr. Lacatski have gone far beyond where most of this culture wants to be, or thinks it should be. George, where do you see the culture going and what do you feel should the media should do to maybe treat this more rationally?
GK: Well, they should do their job. I mean, I’ve said this before, and I think I first read something like this in your “Communion” book, Whitley. Is that, it’s the job of science and journalism to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated. So that’s our job. You see it for all of my adult life since pursuing this stuff, the nervous laughter, that tittering by anchor people about UFO-related stories or paranormal phenomena. They’ll play The X-Files theme and kind of joke at the end of it, chitchat stuff on the set, and it is a nervous laughter because it’s upsetting to their worldview. That certainly is true for scientists. Neil deGrasse Tyson is being dragged kicking and screaming toward the investigation of this topic and says the most ridiculous things. Ridiculous in the sense that they are non-scientific. Reaching conclusions about the nature of the phenomena without ever investigating it. I don’t understand, I really don’t. You would think professional scientists would be all over this! Somebody is going to win a Nobel Prize for pursuing this stuff and getting to the bottom of it, assuming we can ever do that. The same for news people. Now we have a lot of reporters around the world who are now delving into this topic and trying to play catch up after making fun of it for so long and they’ve got a long way to go. Since the December 2017 story of The New York Times, there’s a lot less of the kind of chittering and mocking that takes place among mainstream journalists. It’s still there. It’s gonna take a long time. Centuries ago, millennia ago, humans were in touch with this stuff, it was part of our lives. And maybe our descriptions of the phenomena we were seeing were not entirely accurate. We assigned godhood to some of these phenomena, when it may or may not be that. Somewhere along the way, we lost touch with our relationship with the paranormal, with the supernatural. And I hope that this book and, “Hunt for the Skinwalker” and other work that’s undergoing now, will bring us around, but it’s going to be a long, lonely, slow slog.
WS: There’s a sort of inherent conflict, even beyond the cultural resistance that you were talking about, and that is that when we view this as a threat, that causes another kind of resistance to exploring it. Fear. Well, for example, I was involved way back in the 90s with a Senate Select Intelligence Committee that was trying to pry information out of the National Security Agency about what they knew about this stuff. And they were coming to me to try to help them formulate questions. And then the control of the Senate changed And suddenly they were gone and the same committee was disbanded on the theory that the United States Senate wanted nothing to do with demons. Now, what do we do about that? Because whatever is here, is getting more provocative every day. More…Every…Day. So is it a threat, Colm? And let’s talk about some of the things that make you feel that it may be a threat and then George, we’re going to talk about the public response to that. Colm, what are some of the things that happened that suggest the possibility of threat?
CK: Well, I would tend to parse that word threat out and I would say that the AAWSAP program encountered several real life, boots on the ground, investigations that were directly associated with medical injuries to people that, essentially…there were several cases we had physician scientists on staff on contract that would would go out as part of these investigative teams and do the whole medical workup in addition to the investigative part of the incident. And so that would involve following these people who had got injured over time, taking blood samples, doing histochemistry, doing hematology, blood chemistry, and then even going through the MRI process, serial blood samples over time. So, bottom line is we documented in exquisite detail, many, many different cases of medical injury, and a couple of them are relayed in some detail in the book. But having gone through the database analysis process with multiple different streams of data coming into AAWSAP, we formulated sort of a special subset of physiological cases, pathological effects on humans, medical injuries, etc. And the bottom line that we came to was that yes, UFOs are bad for your health, but are UFOs a threat? That’s a very, very different question.
CK: And so, one of the Pentagon people I had a long discussion with, actually it was Axelrod in the book, about the concept of threat and threat has two components. One is capability and the other is intent. And so we have gobs of data and AAWSAP accumulated gobs of data on the the capability part of threat, but we have zero data on the intent, on what is the agenda behind these interactions with humans. Is it possible, for example, that some of these people are in the wrong place at the wrong time? So, we were never able to close that circle. Yes, we did document that UFOs are bad for human health, sometimes. But are they a threat? Umm, that question still is open. So I would tend to not say that UFOs are a threat, I would say that they’re just sometimes bad for your health.
WS: Yeah, getting close to them can be very dangerous.
WS: We had, at our cabin one night, there was a iodine-colored plasma hanging in the living room and I was awakened by the light that I could see coming from below. We had a cathedral ceiling. I looked down over the room and one of my cats was moving toward the plasma and I rushed to get a camera. At that moment, the entire house filled with this purple light and the cat had apparently touched this with her nose. The next morning, her eyes were filled with tumors and she had to be put down.
WS: But that wasn’t…in other words, there was nobody trying to do that, it just happened by accident. And someone…whatever that was and why it was there, I don’t know. But it certainly wasn’t after any cat or anybody for that matter.
CK: Yeah. We have an example of that in the book in which this biotechnologist is driving towards Bend Oregon with his daughter and in the field beside them, there’s three, small unidentified objects. They’re bright blue, softball colored, and they seem to be moving erratically and randomly in the field, only a couple hundred feet away. Once the daughter noticed them, they immediately started heading for the car and two of them came inside the car. One of them went through this guy’s left shoulder, went through the chest area and exited his right shoulder. And within less than forty-eight hours, he had sunburn all on the left side of his face, his eye had lost…his sight was beginning to swell up. Ears the same way. Within sort of less than a week, his hair had started falling out on the left side of his body. And it went through a lot of different effects: nausea, metallic taste in the mouth and all of the classical signs of what you would interpret as some kind of, maybe, non-ionizing radiation. Bottom line was that this guy came down with a very rare form of ductal cancer. Luckily, it was not metastatic, so was able to be cured. Our physicians scientists followed this guy, month after month, and actually year after year, and we’re talking about serial blood samples, we were able to document changes in immunological parameters, changes in neutrophils and lymphocytes and all of that. And so over time, we put together a very compelling case that all of the guys health issues had come about because of this object that went right through him. And the question then becomes, was that a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Or was it a deliberate attack? We have no real way of distinguishing between those two possibilities.
GK: Imagine though, Whitley, if you’re the DIA, you’re a scientist like Jim Lacatski, who has an open mind and you’re working for the DWO. And you hear these accounts of a scientific investigation at a place called Skinwalker Ranch, where holes open up in the sky, objects/craft come in and out. It may not be perceived as an immediate threat but that sounds technological and it certainly is not implausible to assume it could be a threat. Or at a minimum, you want to find out if it’s technology, can we duplicate it? That’s not an unreasonable assumption to reach when you’re at that stage of investigation. I think it’s prudent.
WS: Well, I agree with you and I think that, for example, it occurred to me as you were talking, Colm, the idea of weaponizing something like this must be of interest within the intelligence community and in our military. But it has, as we talked about earlier, there’s a very definite sense of awareness here. For example, Dr. Lacatski’s first introduction to it was so perfectly tailored to his interests and I just wonder if we aren’t ourselves kind of playing with fire if we try to weaponize something that has this level of self awareness and extraordinary capability.
GK: Well, yeah! I mean, sure. We don’t know what it is. I think, as I’ve spoken before, when I started this stuff, the prevalent paradigm at the time was these are ET visitors flying here from somewhere else, taking samples, carving up cows, abducting humans, trying to study us. And that was what people believed. Then as I read more, your book “Communion,” Jacques Vallée’s books, and then eventually, the Skinwalker Ranch study of NIDS, it became clear we’re dealing with something else. It’s not as simple as other species from other planets coming here. That could be part of it but it’s something way more mysterious and complex than that. So yeah, I think it’s reasonable to assume it could be that, it could be considered a threat. But it seems to me after all the work that Colm and Dr. Lacatski have done at the ranch and Robert Bigelow and Harry Reid, that this is way more complex, that it’s been here forever with humanity, playing games with us, distracting us, dabbling UFOs in the sky, maybe as a distraction, interacting with us, maybe guiding our genetics, certainly studying us over the long term, concern about where we’re leading the planet. It’s way more complex than just visitors from other planets. They have been here a long time, we haven’t figured out who they are. But you’re only going to find out if you study it, you can’t ignore it because you think it’s demons or something, and expect it to go away.
WS: Colm, in terms of the possible value of this…and to me it seems like the way to go here is to find out what in this really has genuine value for mankind. And not only that, it’s an emergency, because this planet is not going to be able to continue the way it is for much longer. In fact, it’s already failing in fundamental ways. And what is your sense of this presence? If we began to die here as a species, do either of you have any sense of what it might do, if it might do anything? Because it does seem interested in us.
CK: Well, if you look at the seventy-plus-year history starting in 1947 with Kenneth Arnold and the sort of the escalation of activity that occurred with all of these multiple armadas of UFOs. And then there’s been a sort of a rolling sequence, almost decade by decade where a different manifestation would happen in the 50s. We had a lot of these contactees, sort of religious-type cults coming up. We had then in the 70s, we had the sort of the massive interest in Air Force bases and nuclear missile sites that went on through the 80s. We had the so-called abduction phenomena that people began to look at in the 80s and going into the 90s. And then we had this very strange, huge black triangle phenomenon that erupted in the 80s, going through the 90s and into the 2000s. And then, obviously, beginning with the Tic Tac incident, sort of a much more directed engagement within the United States military and I assume other world power militaries. In fact, we know that is the case. So, it’s wave after wave of sort of…it’s almost like something is at the end of the table, sort of jumping up and sort of saying, “Hey, can you can you take a look at me?” What is the message here? At the end of the book, we do talk about this revolution in some people’s views of what human consciousness really is. People like Jeffrey Kripal, Federico Faggin and other people. Bernardo Kastrup is sort of a leading light in this, where consciousness may not necessarily emerge as a result of neurochemical trafficking in the brain, but may actually be a lot bigger than that. So there may be some sort of a convergence of these two effects that are converging with each other and maybe one of the keys to us taking the next step in the UFO investigative scenario would be to start looking at consciousness in a new way. And maybe from that, there will be new avenues of research.
WS: Jeffrey Kripal is, of course, a good friend of mine and we wrote a book together called, “Supernatural.” And he takes a very sophisticated view of all of this, that while it has physical effects and physical manifestations, that it is basically not a physical phenomenon. Now, I don’t know quite what to think of that because in my personal life, one of my uncles was involved at Wright Patt[erson AF Base] and then Wright Field when the debris and bodies were brought in so it’s a family story. There was nothing non-material about that, it was completely material, very material. George, one of the areas of conflict in the mind of the public and one of the things that causes them to sort of remain broadly neutral. The listeners to a show like this aren’t neutral, they are very interested, but most people absolutely are neutral, and the reason is, it all stays in question. We can’t pin it down. We look at a thing like the Tic Tac and the Gimbal videos, and they’re clearly something. They clearly don’t have any means of propulsion that we could come close to understanding, and extraordinary performance, but it doesn’t seem to lead anywhere significant for mankind because we don’t understand. Where can we go with this, do you think?
GK: Well, I’ll quote a great writer named Whitley Strieber (Strieber laughs and says, “Thank you.”) who wrote a long time ago that the architects of the secrecy, the true architects are them. Call them aliens, Visitors, Others, whatever. They’re the ones who give us these brief glimpses, show us things in the sky, fleeting images that sometimes are captured on video, and then poof, they’re gone. At Skinwalker Ranch, this was very true. They showed such a wide array of strange phenomena to witnesses, but very little that you could document. They’re the ones that call the shots. If they wanted to make themselves known and make the evidence indisputable, they could do it. But they don’t. It’s as if they’re leading us on a learning curve of some kind and hoping that we catch up. I can understand that [if] you put all this stuff together, not only UFOs, but all the things that are on the periphery of UFOs, it’s a lot to get your head around. It’s hard for the regular person, who doesn’t spend a lot of time digging into it, to figure it out. It’s a lot easier to figure, “Well, somebody else will figure this out. And I’ll wait to hear what they say.” Over the decades, we’ve heard these alien editorials, call them, where abductees, contactees have experiences and get messages from The Visitors where they tell us, “Take care of your planet, knock it off with these nuclear weapons.” And the message gets out to some but not really to the bulk of people. We don’t take care of the planet, we haven’t knocked off nuclear weapons. My question would be: If it came down to the nitty gritty, would they intervene? Have they intervened? If they have, I haven’t seen any evidence of it. It seems like they’re concerned about our long-term fate and our future, but I suspect they’re more concerned about the planet and what happens to them, than they are about humanity. And maybe we’re an experiment and our time is up. But they don’t want us to destroy the planet in the long run because they live here.
WS: You know, that’s a very interesting question. Colm, are they from here? How do you react to that as a possibility? Because, for one thing, this planet is full of species that have more than one form, that are just seemingly fundamentally different from each other. Caterpillar/butterfly. tadpole/frog. How could a frog ever believe that a tadpole would become a frog, or a caterpillar believe it would eventually become a butterfly? What if this is a much larger and more deeply human thing? How do you react to that? You must have thought about that? I’m sure you both have.
CK: Yes, and I guess…having looked at all of the data that have come in through the AAWSAP program, there is no doubt that the target…it seems like the target for a lot of this activity, if not all of it, is humanity, is the human being. So is this some form of intelligence that masquerades as a technological device, but also has psychic effects? It has ways of deeply…what John Mack used to talk about, ontological shock, of sort of transforming somebody’s worldview in a couple of minutes. So is there some form of technology that is able to do both: Have bonafide radar signatures, it displays substantial weight when it’s on the ground, it is detectable throughout the electromagnetic spectrum. But at the same time, the actual encounters are life changing, depending on how willing the experiencer is willing to go. I mean, a lot of people are so terrified that they want to shut this down, if they encounter it. As as I said, we’ve been following a lot of these people for many years and it really is an evolutionary process, both physiologically but also psychologically, ending up in what usually looks like a different worldview. So, is that the intent of this, or is it a byproduct of this? Right now, I really have no idea. I used to, at the end of the NIDS program, back in the late 90s, early 2000s, I used to have a fairly concrete view of this phenomenon, that it is essentially from another galaxy, exploring, but I think it’s way more complex than that. And I really think that the key to understanding a lot of this is to really look at human consciousness in a new way.
WS: Our cabin was situated over a very big seam of iron and the Iron Mountain storage facility was a few miles north. And I’ve thought always that this might have had something to do with the fact that this could manifest so completely physically in that area, something I wouldn’t say that I have any theory about at all. But I’m wondering if there’s anything that you’ve discovered about the NIDS Ranch that might explain what happens there. I have noticed, I’ve looked at its topology and it does seem to be in a big, sort of almost an indentation in the land. And I’ve thought that perhaps, could it even be the remains of some kind of a communications device from the very, very, very distant past? Or is it a natural formation that just attracts this stuff to it? You’re nodding a lot. George, what are your thoughts?
GK: I know that in “The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch,” the TV show that details Brandon Fugal and his team’s current investigation of the ranch, Dr. Travis Taylor in, I think, the last episode, came up with an interesting theory. He thinks that the Unita Basin was the site of a gigantic asteroid or meteor strike a long time [ago], and that might have something to do with the phenomena. That’s an interesting thing to pursue. He compared it to other places around the world where there are hotspots of paranormal activity that were in fact, the site of of strikes like that. I know that when the NIDS guys went into the ranch, they did what scientists are supposed to do: They looked for prosaic explanations for the phenomena on the property. They looked for psychotropic plants, for example, they studied for gravity anomalies and they looked at mineral content of the soil. The only thing we ever found, they ever found, was the presence of gilsonite, which is a pretty unusual mineral that was found there in abundance and not found in many places of the world. But why that would trigger some of this phenomena, we don’t know. Colm, you can probably pick up that answer better than I can.
CK: Well, we went through, as George said, pretty well, all of the different variables. We even we started using bottled water exclusively, just in case the water was contaminated with with hallucinogens. Gilsonite is a hydrocarbon, I believe, that is used in the oil industry and it’s used in heavy industry. It seems to have a strong presence in the Uinta Basin and on the ranch. But in the end, throughout this, we eliminated pretty well all of the variables. We looked at seismic data activity within 400 mile radius of the ranch, over time. We looked at the USGS seismic maps and also University of Utah seismic data and there was really no correlation between the time and the place of these phenomena when they erupted on the ranch, versus seismic activity. Because there’s a long history, as you probably know, of correlations between seismic activity and ball lightning, piezoelectric effects, etc. But we were not able to find any correlation on the ranch between seismic effects and the unusual phenomena.
GK: Just to interject, Whitley. In the book, as you read, there were some really creative and clever and ambitious attempts by BAASS to communicate with whatever it is that’s there.
WS: Yeah, I was just going to bring that up. So good, let’s talk about it.
GK: Sure, there were experiments and games that were put out. NIDS had done some of this as well, and they thought at one point, I think, Colm, that they were getting close to being able to communicate, to generate a reaction from whatever it is. Same thing was done with BAASS, and they did get some responses, some incredible responses that were pretty much undeniable. Colm, you can tell about the games if you want.
The majority of the communication strategies on Skinwalker Ranch used by BAASS were traditional and involved the initiation of a variety of games, puzzles, and other approaches in order to establish communication. A pre-locked game or puzzle would be set up in a location that would not be disturbed by human or animal. No access to the game was possible without keys that were housed in Las Vegas. The initial configuration of the game would be photographed, then re-photographed again 24 hours later. If any component of the game had moved during the previous 24 hours, the movement would be detectable by comparing the “before” and “after” photographs. The strategy and data from these communication games were described in the 360-page report entitled “Utah Ranch Investigation: August 2009–February 2010” delivered to DIA in April 2010.
Excerpt from “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon”
CK: Yeah, one of the approaches was to try to directly communicate with this, with whatever is on the property. And having spent, I would guess, twenty-five years thinking about this, I can honestly say, “Is there something to do with after death? Are these spirits of the local Native American Ute tribe? Are they some sort of interdimensional phenomena?” We have absolutely no idea. We were, actually, successfully communicating with some of these games. We would put out certain patterns of jacks and these balls, and photograph them and come back thirty minutes later, knowing that nobody had disturbed them, and they would be in a completely different pattern. We would re-photograph them, try to repeat the experiment [and] the experiment never repeated. There were other instances when we would be down in the central homestead two of the property and particularly after a sort of graphic activity elsewhere, sometimes we would get…some of our walkie talkies would suddenly spring to life in the middle of these homesteads. Flashlights would spontaneously come on, blink off, come on, blink off. So it was almost like this very rudimentary series of effects, that I guess you could interpret as communication. However, we were never able to get a stimulus response, repeat, stimulus response, which is foundational to the scientific method. So in terms of reproducibility, we were never able to reproduce. So, in terms of writing up a scientific paper that would be accepted in a peer-reviewed journal, we were never even close to that with Skinwalker Ranch.
But with the AAWSAP program, Skinwalker Ranch was only a very small part of what we were doing. We were doing a lot of biochemical analysis, chemical analysis, taking blood samples from injury patients throughout this whole program. So we were doing as broad a scope as possible that was based on this premise that you litter the place with sensors, and you get all the sensor data as possible, but in parallel, you look in a very close and methodical way at human effects. And human effects being all the way through physiology, pathology, medical injury, psychological, sometimes psychic effects, effects in dreams, and then ultimately, what George was talking about, paranormal effects, poltergeist activity in people’s surroundings. And we had all of that in gobs with the AAWSAP program. In the book, we talked about various people from military intelligence being on this property and then going home to 3000 miles away, and these paranormal Disneyland phenomena erupting in their households, primarily with their kids and their spouses, but also moving out into the neighborhoods. So, we speculate in the book that this has a lot of parallels with the way infectious organisms travel. A virus is primarily infected on Skinwalker Ranch, is carried home into the household, transmits to the various family members, and then various family members transmit out into the neighborhood. So, you could even construct, in Coronavirus terminology, is the R Zero, you could actually construct epidemiological studies and do sophisticated modeling if the N (number of people studied?) was bigger. And you know, the N was pretty small over a twenty-seven-month program with AAWSAP, but we had the capability, once the AAWSAP program was going, of tremendously expanding that. So that was one of the, I guess, downsides of the AAWSAP programming terminating.
WS: Well, the phenomenon is very careful about concretization of its presence. That’s certainly been my experience, and from all I know about it, very definitely. There are two things that I would like to touch on and I’ll do this in order. First is your brief mention of the dead and the afterlife, I think, is a terribly important one. The reason being that the implant I have in my ear, it was eventually explained to me – my listeners already know the story, but I can tell you off the air if you’re interested – as something that had been designed by a man called Konstantin Raudive, after he died. And the only other person I know who has one like it, maybe he doesn’t have one like it but he has the same effects in his visual field that it causes in mine, is an expert on Konstantin Raudive (laughs). And we didn’t know that, of course, until just by chance, we happen to compare notes. So the dead play some kind of a role here, it would seem to me, and it gets back to the fundamental nature of not just the phenomenon but of the human race. And are we absolutely alone in our humanity or is this just a phase that we go through? So George, I would like your response to this, you have that look on your face that tells me from experience that you’re ready to talk.
GK: Well, imagine you’re somebody working for the DIA and you get called before a Senate Select Committee and they ask you about AAWSAP and you say, “Hey, we’re not only studying UFOs and maybe aliens, but, by the way, we’re trying to communicate with dead people,” how that would go over. I’ll say this, it is no accident that Robert Bigelow, with Colm’s help, created BICS, the Bigelow Institute for Consciousness Studies, a year ago. And I think they’re about to announce the winners of their prize, looking for evidence, the best evidence, essays of proof that human consciousness lives on after physical death. The fact that Robert Bigelow would shift into that space, as opposed to what NIDS was looking at, which is primarily UFOs, at least in a public perception, is not an accident. NIDS was created to pursue the dual topics of, Do We Survive Physical Death and Are We Alone In The Universe? The two biggest questions of human existence. Bigelow devoted so many years of his life and so many millions of his dollars, more than any person in the history of the world has spent. NIDS eventually shifted strictly into the UFO arena and left behind the consciousness part of it. He’s returned to it though. Now, after NIDS, after BAASS and AAWSAP, he’s returned to that central focus because that is where he and Colm believe the evidence and the research is headed. Trying to understand human consciousness will allow us to better understand all these other seemingly unrelated mysteries: aliens, visitors, UFOs, poltergeists, communicating with the dead, all these other phenomena that seem unrelated, but are in fact, interrelated. It really is the greatest adventure and investigation – scientific and otherwise – in history.
WS: You would think that they would want us to thrive and survive physically. Colm, is there any sense of any kind of a breakthrough in this area, where communication would be more organized and more reliable?
CK: Well, I know that the essay contest that was promoted and put out by the Bigelow Institute for Consciousness Studies, the subject of that essay contest is to write about the best evidence for survival of human consciousness after death. And it has been absolutely amazing what the level of essays that we have received. We sort of down selected from about twelve to thirteen hundred different entries, all the way down to two hundred and five essays that came from thirty-eight countries, multiple different cultures, obviously, multiple different authors, but different countries, different cultures. And they were all focused on this. And to me, having read the majority of these essays, the take home message, looking at this, is that the way of looking at the survival of consciousness after death is extremely common to our cultures. It’s not just sort of a North American or European phenomenon, it is basic to pretty well all humans. And I think that level of sort of awareness that people carry around with them, all the time, is also the same level of awareness that will probably be needed to engage the next stage of research on this phenomenon,
By the way, I really applaud what the UAP Task Force has been doing since the June 25 report that came out, that documented, I believe it was 144 cases. But these people behind the scenes are some very smart people, they’re very aware of some of these parameters that we have been discussing during this program. And it is a matter of time, I think, before the next phase of research happens because I believe the people who are involved with UAPTF are some very, very talented people
WS: Yeah, I would think so. I mean, they would have to be to successfully juggle the amorphous and indistinct data with the need to organize it and make it more more concrete. I wonder, also, based on the Konstantin Raudive thing and also thinking back on Dr. Lacatski’s first experience at the ranch, how much this other side can project its own technology into our world? And maybe the more we work toward it, the better that bridge will be able to be crossed. I think that the contest that you did is brilliant because it’s surely going to elicit some phenomenally good responses. I mean, him offering half a million dollars, that got a lot of people’s attention, no question. And the more we look at this – and I think this is true at the ranch, too. It was certainly true in our cabin – the more we looked at it, the more we tried, the more responsive it became. Is that your sense also, George? Because you look at this all the time, and you go out into the public and you draw the public into it, this is what you do, this is your job.
GK: Well, certainly the level of awareness, that maybe these phenomena are interrelated, has expanded. We hope that this book expands it even further. If you just look back at one incident, Jim Lacatski’s experience on the ranch, it seemed exactly designed to get his attention. I mean, he could have gone there, seen nothing, all of this would have gone away. But it designed something inside that house that only he could see, that was indisputable, it was a geometric shape. It’s not something that appears in everyone’s living room or kitchen. It was designed for him to make an illustration that there was something there worth investigating. So, I see that as sort of a hopeful sign, the attempts at communication that Colm and his team carried out on the ranch. That was hopeful when there is a response. It is maddening that it doesn’t happen on a regular basis or is reproducible, but we got to take what we can get and you’re not going to figure this stuff out by not studying it. I applaud the UAP Task Force. Lue Elizondo, and his team that became AATIP. They carried the ball down the field, then the UAP Task Force continued it. We look forward to what comes next. And if they’re only able to study UFOs because somebody in the Pentagon higher ups think it’s maybe demonic? So be it. Eventually, you’re going to have to expand those parameters, though, and look at this in a broad sense as AAWSAP did. If AAWSAP had been allowed to continue for all these years, who knows where we’d be right now? We might have some actual answers by now. It was cut off because people found it too weird. And I’m sorry to say, that’s just short sighted.
WS: I agree with you, I think it’s very short sighted, and it has to end because we need something radical and something very new on planet Earth. Going up into near space in rocket ships isn’t going to cut it for long. We need, among other things, we need to understand that propulsion system and whether or not it can move us, and if so, can it move us to places far from here. What can it do? Which gets me to the question, I’m going to start to ask some questions about the papers that are mentioned in the appendix, appendix one. And folks, don’t read this without at least looking at the names of these papers in this appendix. I’ve seen some comments online from people who obviously haven’t done that and it’s very important, and we’ll get to that in a moment. But we have to find our way here. Is there anywhere where a really serious effort is being made to understand this propulsion system? Because it could take us light years beyond where we are with rocketry, and you’d think that Dr. Lacatski being in rocketry would have been attracted to it for sure.
CK: It’s really interesting that the thirty-eight papers that were commissioned, AAWSAP hired EarthTech as a subcontractor, basically to go out in the world and find the absolute best of cutting edge technology that would address things like propulsion, aerodynamic lift, and even radio-frequency-directed weaponry as part of the AAWSAP study. And what came back in terms of those thirty-eight papers was a state of the art of where the thinking was, projecting out the next forty years on what the best technology could offer. And these papers were transformed into Defense Intelligence Research Documents, or DIRDs, and they were put up on the classified network and made available to pretty well all the people who had access to what was called the JWICS system, which is the TS-SCI system that they have the equivalent of the internet in the classified arena. So every part of the Air Force, DARPA, different departments in the Pentagon, all of these people, CIA, had access to all thirty-eight papers. and the feedback that we got through the various networks and departments was extremely high. These were very high on a lot of people’s lists as sort of crystalized forecasts of what the best technology would look like fifty years from now. I mean, what would an advanced cockpit in an aircraft look like? These kinds of focuses. And, interestingly, the head of the acquisitions technology and logistics of the Pentagon was a guy called Frank Kendall, at the time, during the 2008 program. And he had very, very high praise for these 38 papers. And now, in 2021, he is the Secretary of the Air Force and he’s being sort of peppered with questions about the UAP Task Force and I can see this sort of circle coming around. Ten years ago or so, he really praised these thirty-eight papers, very highly and now he’s being asked about the UFO topic by reporters, following the release of the UAP Task Force report in June of this year. So, it’s kind of like a complete circle is now finished. And the genesis was the thirty-eight papers.
WS: I think it’s important, as we move forward, that it be understood by the media very clearly, and by the public, that the Air Force never did anything it didn’t have to do. Not that it was ordered from above within this world, but it was put in a position where it couldn’t do anything except what it did. I’ll give a quick example. The Roswell Army Airfield was the most sensitive airfield in the western world for the simple reason that it’s the only atomic bomber wing in the world at the time that the crash occurred, thirty miles north. It was inevitable. And legally, probably even necessary to cover that up because of the sensitivity of those bombers and our failure, our realization that we didn’t understand at all what happened there. So they were drawn into it by the phenomenon itself. It made sure, and the other, of course, the Trinity site, where the other crash [took place]. There couldn’t be a more provocative place for that to happen, either. They were making sure that they let us know that they were there, but not in such a way that the official world would feel comfortable telling the public. It was very cleverly done. They’re very good social engineers, I think. Go ahead, George.
GK: That’s true. I’ll talk briefly about the the papers that were produced by the study and then maybe direct your question to Colm that he doesn’t want to answer (Whitley laughs). But those thirty-eight papers were baseline reports so that AAWSAP had something to compare UFOs and unknown technology to. And they were great. Only one of them was classified, thirty-seven of them were not. They should be made public. I have released ten of them, I think, when I’ve been able to, and I think all the rest of them will come out in not too much time. The other things that were produced by AAWSAP, by BAASS, are just astounding, gigantic reports, hundreds of pages long. There’s one about Skinwalker Ranch. I have been privileged and permitted to see some of this stuff. It’s not about the history of the ranch so much, it’s about what AAWSAP did to expand our knowledge of it. What they did was not on the ranch itself but they had these expanding, concentric circles, where investigators, boots on the ground, went and interviewed witnesses and heard their extraordinary experiences. It’s not just isolated to the ranch, it’s everywhere in that basin, and some of the stories are astounding. [The witnesses shared their stories], with the promise that they’re never going to be identified, so how you release that information, it’s going to take some time, I think. You’d have to scrub it of personal identifiers. But if and when that comes out, it’s going to be remarkable. They had other reports like that, gigantic piles of documentation that went to DIA. I hope it comes out at some point and people can see it for themselves. I don’t know how long that will take. We tried to do our best to explain what’s in those reports in the book.
WS: And that is one of the most important parts of the book, I think, because of the fact that this enormous effort has been made by a lot of very brilliant people. And they have made progress and I always think that if it could open out into the whole public arena, more progress would be made more quickly. I’ve always wished that people like Albert Einstein, although he may have known about this, I’m not sure, and Stephen Hawking, had more access, because they would have been able to think so well about this. Especially Hawking, I think.
And now I want to turn to the abductees and the close encounter witnesses. And I want to start with you, Colm. If you would, just give me an overview of where we are with that now, in the context of the reports in this book. What do you think of…because a lot of the people watching this show are close encounter witnesses and abductees?
CK: We did a lot of investigation of cases that were coming up through the the MUFON pipeline. We had a purchase order contract with MUFON and we had a very, very good relationship with MUFON, during the 2008-2009 timeframe in which they had a special operations team. They called it, I think, the SIP.
CK: And we had weekly telecoms to basically go through what the most likely close encounter cases were. So, we were able to dispatch teams, boots on the ground, to various places in the country, and actually internationally, too, in response to some of these cases. And so what we came up with in our database, after all of the data was through, was that there was a subset of people who had had a lot of physiological and pathological effects through through UFOs. We did not go into the abduction phenomenon. We did not encounter a lot of cases that were associated with the abduction phenomenon in the twenty-seven months that we were operating, but a lot of the cases that we had had from previous databases, for example, the National Institute for Discovery Science database, had many of these cases that were associated with abduction. But from the AAWSAP perspective, we did not spend a lot of time actually investigating those cases.
WS: Okay, well, I just wanted to talk about that because I know my listeners will be interested. One of the things that happens that I believe you may have just alluded to, George, I’m not sure which one of you did. But one of the things that happens to people in the military is that they get involved, they have an encounter, or they follow a UFO, or they are ordered to lock on a target that is one of these objects and so forth. And then the next thing you know, these entities show up in their lives and their family’s life. That happened to me. That’s why I’m in this, because my uncle was involved at Roswell and my father had other involvements that he never spoke directly about. But that’s, I’m sure, why I’m involved. And there’s another case of this, we had him on Dreamland a few weeks ago. A cryptographer aboard the Roosevelt who was present when the Gimbal incident occurred, found himself afterwards involved in a close encounter situation that became ongoing and part of his life. How many people in the military are involved in this, do you think, for this reason? That once there’s exposure in their family, it spreads through the whole family like an infection, as you said earlier, Colm? Is it an infection or is it grace?
CK: I guess it depends how you experience grace or experience an infection. But I really agree with what you’re saying because that gentleman, I believe he wrote a book about his story that was after the Gimbal close encounter. But we came across multiple cases like that and the only way that we could actually get data is from these long term follow ups. So, it is very, very time intensive, very resource intensive to continuously follow these people, month after month after month, year after year. That is not the usual mo of the quote unquote, “UFO investigator.” It’s kind of, you land in the property where the event has taken place, and you spend maybe a few days there, and then you move on to the next case. But in these kinds of cases, especially in the military, where there is a profound reluctance to actually come forward with these cases, you’ve got to do long-term follow-ups and have a lot of resources devoted to do these follow-ups. You know, I look at some of these F-18 pilots, for example, I mean, can you really imagine that any of these F-18 pilots are going to volunteer information about what might have happened to them, subsequent to some close encounter with some object? I mean, the first thing that they would be worried about would be they would lose their privilege of flying, which they’ve done all of their lives. So they would automatically be subjected to a series of psychological questionnaires and the bottom line is that they may even have their security clearances impacted. So why would anybody in their right mind, given the current situation, volunteer any information besides what the sensors in the F-18 picked up and what the sensors on the Princeton picked up? Why would they ever come forward with this kind of information, because there is zero support or encouragement for that kind of thing to happen.
WS: George, this is your playing field. You are one who bridges into the broad culture. That is where the social changes and the changes in attitude need to take place that will enable people like that to come forward. And part of it is validation. I think this book is a tremendously validating book. That’s why I’ve said, and will say on the show in the promotional sections that I’ll do after we’re finished, that it’s probably the most important UFO book ever written. Tell me about the way you think the culture needs to change and how you think we must go about that.
GK: I guess we need to give support to the people who have these experiences, first of all, and make it more likely that they’d be willing to come forward. Colm touched on it now. We’ve seen the names of naval aviators and radar personnel who were a part of the Tic Tac, that Go Fast, The Gimbal. You can bet that there’s a percentage of those who’ve had experiences beyond seeing a UFO. I think Kevin Day has talked about other things that have happened. The percentage of people in the general public, maybe it’s ten percent, who have experiences, who have seen things, that same percentage applies to the vast number of people who work in the military and intelligence circles. The percentage holds the same. And a subset of those are folks who not only see UFOs, or encounter them, but who bring something home. Call it the hitchhiker. We need to give support to those people and make it easier for them to come forward. Make it easier for them to not fear the consequences of speaking the truth. We hope that this book is a step in that direction. It’s what we’ve been working on even before this. It’s what Colm did for both NIDS and AAWSAP and what Dr. James Lacatski is still doing. You know, I don’t know how to enact vast change in society, I just plug away in my little corner of the universe, which is journalism. I hope that we can affect, not the general public, but my colleagues in journalism to take this stuff seriously. In most of the years that I’ve been doing this, it was a long, lonely slog. There’s no one else in a media universe, no one employed by a mainstream news organization who’s covered it over this much time. I think we’ve finally got some company. I’d like to tell them come on in, the water’s just fine, there’s a lot of work to be done here. And we need people with a broad perspective and the courage not to worry about derogatory comments or snark on Twitter, to be willing to take this stuff on, because it deserves it. These are the biggest questions in human existence, and we need to get on it.
WS: Well, exactly. They are the biggest questions in human existence, and they have only very recently, since the late 40s, become questions. And this is one of the primary reasons our era is so different from everything that has come before. Because instead of mythologizing all of this…although that’s done, I mean, it’s done it. There’s a very big folkloric element here, certainly. But instead of just mythologizing it or completely ignoring it, we’re getting a little closer. Now, this gets me to my last question and I’ve saved it for the end, because it’s about Robert Bigelow. And I know he’s a very private man and I don’t want either of you to say anything that would make him uncomfortable in any way. But I think he’s one of the most important people in the world, and as this becomes clearer over time, as I said to Colm, you’re going to all be in the history books, and so is he. Why did he start, Colm? What drew him to this?
CK: Well, I think he’s on the record with having a life-changing experience that his grandparents had encountered in 1947. A very, very in your face, dramatic UFO sighting and the young Robert Bigelow was exposed to that at a very young age and I think it was a formative experience. The grandparents were in Las Vegas in 1947 when this object was approaching the car and they really thought they were going to die, both grandparents in the car. It was almost on a collision course and at the last minute, it veered away. But the young Robert Bigelow was very affected by that and I think his life, I’m not going to speak for him, but from what I can see, his life has really been about answering these fundamental questions of where do we go after this and are we the only intelligent creatures in the universe. So these fundamental questions have dominated the various organizations that he’s been a part of. I mean, he funneled over $3 million into the [UNLV], Chair of Consciousness Studies. He focused on starting the National Institute for Discovery Science, which genuinely broke new ground in terms of forensic investigations of cattle mutilations and also the black triangle effect. NIDS did a lot of research to move the ball forward. He was the foundational sort of person in the center when the AAWSAP program was being generated. And now here he is, as of June of 2020, forming this new organization, Bigelow Institute for Consciousness Studies. So he’s been sort of at the fulcrum of multiple, different organizations, all aimed at answering questions. And by the way, meanwhile, he’s the only person in the world that owns an inflatable spacecraft that is presently docked with the International Space Station. So, not only is the sort of fundamental questions being asked and answered, but also, he did create a revolution in aerospace in generating these expandable spacecraft, which are really what NASA is going after in the next decade. So Bigelow Aerospace was at the forefront of that technological development. So, in so many different ways, Robert Bigelow has sort of been the catalyst and also been the originator of both technological and also foundational questions.
WS: And one of the most courageous things I’ve ever seen was him on “60 Minutes,” telling it like it is. Boy, wasn’t that impressive.
CK: Yeah. it was.
WS: Okay, gentlemen, we’ve come just about to the end of our time together. I think, by the way, that what we’re going to find over time, is that consciousness has more than one relationship to the material world. And at the NIDS ranch, you’re seeing consciousness in other levels of relationship to the material world than we experience through our bodies. And it could be that if we can come to understand that, we can begin to do what we need to do to preserve our planet and life on it. And it is going to be just like magic. Just like magic. Thank you both so much for being with me. “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon,” – as I have told you about four times now during this show, folks – is a terribly important book. It is a sea-changing book. And the one last thing is, I urge both of you, get as many of those papers out as you possibly can. Because, folks, when you read the titles of these papers, at the end of this book, you will know that we’re going in the right direction. All is well in the end. Thank you both.
GK: Thanks, Whitley. Always great to talk to you.
CK: It was great talking with you.
In my opinion, “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon” is one of the most important UFO-related books in a very long time. It shows us the direction we need to head if we want to have any chance of understanding the phenomenon.
Alternative cover by Uplifting Tweets…
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