AAWSAP, George Knapp, James Lacatski, Skinwalker Ranch, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon

“Skinwalkers” Transcript: Oct. 12th – Mystery Wire – Lacatski & Kelleher: “Probably The Largest UFO Database In The World”

30 Nov , 2021  

“You have that database, probably the largest UFO database that exists in the world and is currently being used by the U.S. military. So yes, [AAWSAP] was completely a UFO project.”

~Dr. James Lacatski


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George Knapp (GK): Dr. Jim Lacatski, there has been considerable speculation, fueled in part by statements from the DoD spokesperson that the $22 million that was secured by Senator Reid and his colleagues in Congress to fund this program and study, had nothing to do with UFOs. It was really just a study of future technologies, presumably by our adversaries, that it was really just that.



GK: Can you address whether AAWSAP was first and foremost an investigation of UFO phenomena? Why isn’t it made obvious in any of the documentation that’s been made public so far?

Dr. James Lacatski (JL): “It was completely UFO related. The reason you haven’t seen the documentation is we used a statement of objectives format for the request for proposal. That is insufficient for anyone examining the contents of the contract. They must have the proposal.


Part of the BAASS Proposal – Excerpted from “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon”


JL: Now within the proposal, and in this case, it was from Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies, it’s clearly mentioned among the topics proposed, a worldwide database of Advanced Aerospace Vehicles. There can be no ambiguity here, this was being proposed as a UFO project. Now, if you want to look at the tail end of the project, you’ll find over one hundred documents required to be reported to the Defense Intelligence Agency that were UFO-related, in part, of course. I mean, they were large, very large documents. And you also have technical studies, and you have that database, probably the largest UFO database that exists in the world and is currently being used by the U.S. military. So yes, it was completely a UFO project.


Appendix I Excerpt – Excerpted from “Skinwalker at the Pentagon”


GK: One of the other things has been confusing for the public, over the last almost four years, the New York Times and other major media outlets reported that that $22 million went to AATIP, not to AAWSAP. Can you clarify the difference between AAWSAP and AATIP?


From the December 16th, 2017, NYT Article on AATIP


JL: Yes, I’m the name AATIP was a nickname for AAWSAP for certain security reasons, that we’ve put into the book. But the difference between AAWSAP with the nickname AATIP, at DIA, and AATIP at the Pentagon, is quite distinct. AAWSAP had $22 million of funding. It covered military and civilian UFOs, yielding a massive database. It also had a main contract and subcontracts. Now, AATIP in the Pentagon, as described in the articles, was basically zero funded, looked at specific military UFO encounters – and very important ones because they had film – and it had no contract. So getting back to how did this mix up occur? I think it’s not deliberate, it’s not due to to authors, to television personalities, etc. It’s the fact we were running, not an official SAP, but a closed program. I can tell you for a fact that within my own office, they did not know, except leadership, that this contract was being run. They had no idea whatsoever. Our security was that tight. And also, the fact is, is that…well, I guess that pretty much says it. That’s the best example I can give.

GK: Dr. Colm Kelleher, you were program manager at BAASS. Can you describe, in sort of broad terms, the operation at BAASS, how many people were hired, in what timeframe? And what did they do? I mean, was this a real investigation of UFOs and related phenomena, and how did it work?

Dr. Colm Kelleher (CK): Well, I was hired in November of 2008. The AAWSAP program ran from September 2008 to late 2010. So one of the first tasks that I had for coming on board was to put together a team of UFO-focused investigators as quickly as possible. So, I was thinking back on this and between November 2008, and probably April 2009, I personally conducted about three hundred telephone interviews in an attempt to recruit different people for different positions at AAWSAP. And in addition, I did at least a hundred, face-to-face interviews in my office in that period of time. So, we’re talking about a pretty rapid clip in terms of bringing forth a lot of people into the office, sometimes there were one or two people outside. But our focus was in hiring a team of PhD-level scientists, that would include physics and biology, master’s level scientists, technicians. We also looked for database analysts, and military intelligence personnel who had a long history investigative background. And of course, we also were looking for a lot of security officers, because security was a big issue.

Interestingly, one of our program managers was a twenty-year veteran of the Air Force Office of Special Investigations, also known as a AFOSI. And this guy was a very, very seasoned investigator and he helped us a lot in what turned out to be [an] attempted formation of a relationship with AFOSI, which is discussed in the book. But all of this hiring and recruitment occurred within a four or five-month period. I think by the end of May of 2009, we had a team of about fifty people. And George, when you consider that this was a twenty-four month contract…so not only were we putting together the security infrastructure of this large organization, and that included facility security clearances, getting everything up to a level that was sufficient for inspections, but hiring these people, training all of these different people. And then we executed multiple programs. side-by-side. And all of this happened in a twenty-four-month period. So we were on a pretty rapid clip and I would say – I’ve worked with government organizations in the past, NASA and DoD in other capacities – putting that kind of level of activity together in a twenty-four-month period, I think was pretty extraordinary. And obviously, Dr. Lacatski’s input in Washington, DC, in greasing the wheels to make all of this happen, putting together a pretty large organization that was focused only on UFO investigations, that was the key.

GK: You know, one of the most disturbing aspects of the investigation that you both cooperated in and headed, is highlighted in this book: The medical and physical consequences of close encounters and not just lights in the sky and people maybe seeing structured craft, but also, other related phenomena that resulted in documented physical effects, some of them pretty serious effects. Dr. Kelleher, can you tell us a little bit about what was learned about the medical consequences of these encounters and maybe provide an example?

CK: Yes, we had multiple streams of cases pertaining to UFOs that were coming in. We were also examining multiple databases, some of which were pilot databases, military pilots, civilian pilots. And we were databasing a very large number of cases. We had what we call the data warehouse that has eleven separate databases of UAP cases from around the world and from within the United States.


Excerpted from “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon”

The Data Warehouse comprised eleven separate databases and their associated supporting documentation in electronic format—such as witness interviews, photographs, videos, record- ings, sketches, analytical reports, and more. Each of the databases contained UAP sighting events that related to the purpose of that particular database, although some of the reported cases did overlap.

The eleven databases included in the AAWSAP BAASS Data Warehouse were:

(1) NIDS Database

(2) Airline and Mil-itary Pilot Database

(3) Project Sign/Grudge/Blue Book Database

(4) UFOCAT Database

(5) MUFON Case Management System Database

(6) Project Colares Database

(7) Canadian Government UAP Release Database

(8) United Kingdom Government UAP Release Database

(9) AAWSAP BAASS Database of cases investigated internally 2008-2010

(10) Skinwalker Ranch Database

(11) An “eyes only” database documenting physiological effects from individuals who had spent time on the Skinwalker Ranch.


CK: And we actually data-based several hundred cases where individuals, both here and and beyond the United States, had encountered UFOs and had had physiological effects, pathological effects and medical effects, some of which [the] medical effects were quite serious. And to that end, in terms of real-time investigations in medical, UFO effects, we had two physician scientists, and I’m talking MD PhDs, that were consultants with AAWSAP. And their task was basically to be as a part of a team that would go out and investigate UAP-related injuries. We had a few that were real time. And normally, during a UFO investigation, investigators may spend a few days with the witnesses. In terms of these medical-type investigations, these investigations went on sometimes for months and sometimes for years. And a lot of these investigations involved taking of blood samples, analytical chemistry, hematology of blood samples, immune system parameters, sometimes MRIs were done, all under the HIPAA standards. We were very careful to observe all patient confidentiality and HIPAA dictates.

So, we came across a few outstanding cases in terms oof medical injuries. I can give you an example of one. There was a biotechnologist that was driving towards Bend, Oregon and he had his daughter in the car. And the daughter noticed, off in the field, three unusual, unidentified objects that seemed to be erratically flying close to the ground, they were small. And right after she noticed this, they came towards the car and the biotechnologist, as he was driving, two of these objects came into the vehicle. One passed right in front of father and daughter, right across the dashboard, the other one through his left shoulder and exited through his right shoulder. These were small, approximately baseball-sized objects. We still have not a good ascertainment of exactly what those objects were, but right afterwards, this guy began to feel dizzy, he began to feel nauseous.

The following morning he woke up, there was a lot of pain in his left side. His left face was very, very sunburnt. He started, within a couple of days or a week, losing hair on his left side, His left eye began to decrease in acuity, his left ear began to go downhill. Long story short, our physician scientists followed this guy and his family over several months. A few months later, this guy came down with a rare form of ductal carcinoma and luckily was was able to be treated. But multiple blood samples were taken over that time, and sort of a very cohesive picture was put together so that a complete story of what we thought was a high probability of medical injury occurring as a result of this close encounter with unidentified flying objects. There are other cases that we explain in the book, but that one in particular, was followed, actually, for years.

GK: Just one last comment from each of you. We all have been working on it, you guys more than I have, for a couple of years, putting this together, it’s finally out. Dr. Licatski, Jim, fourteen months it took to get the stamp of approval from the DoD. I imagine you were kind of sweating it out there. Can you tell me about that process and how you feel about what emerged from that process?

JL: Well, I’m glad that we finally got a public release authority. And frankly, I understood all of their concerns, what we had to rewrite in the book, and what do we had to remove and put in. I wasn’t really sweating it because I was almost in constant communication with them. Very pleasant people I was dealing with, and I understood their situation during the pandemic, they were working off site. But they had to process it through secure channels because you don’t know what’s in the book until [you read it]. So they had to process it as if it had maybe Top Secret-SCI information in it. Of course, it didn’t, but nevertheless, they had to handle it that way. They had to go into work [and] transfer to various organizations for their review and approval. But it eventually occurred and I’m glad we got that approval for release.

GK: Colm, you excited? It must be like giving birth, (Kelleher laughs) huh? To have this finally out, to be able to tell this story?

CK: Yeah, I think it’s been a long time coming and I think the book, as it comes out, should be able to address a certain level of confusion, especially in the media over the last four years. There has been sort of a focus on (his audio cut out but I’m think he said the focus has been on Skinwalker Ranch). The book will encapsulate the entire program. And I think it is a complete summary of the of the two year, the twenty-four-month program that occurred. And as Jim said, over one hundred reports, during that twenty-four months, were submitted to the Defense Intelligence Agency, both electronically and by paper. I remember standing in my office, actually, in Las Vegas, with the paper copies in three-ring binders, and that set of data actually went to about six feet high on the floor in my office. I mean, it was an incredible stash of data, because it encompassed not only monthly reports, but also reports that were deep dives into specific cases, and also topics. So, I think it’s about time that the entire story of AAWSAP is being told. And Dr. Lacatski was the driving force in Washington DC and I was the day-to-day manager in Las Vegas. So, I think between the two of us, we’ve come up with a pretty good summary of what the whole program looked like.

GK: I think people will really enjoy seeing the genesis of the Tic Tac investigation, how that was explained in the book. Also, what I liked was the inside baseball of how all of you, Senator Reid, Robert Bigelow, fought to get the program on and get it up and running, but also to defend it from predators in the Pentagon who eventually caused a lot of trouble. I mean, can you imagine if AAWSAP and BAASS had been allowed to continue, how far down the road we would be in understanding these mysteries? Okay, well, first of many conversations to come. I’m looking forward to how the public reacts to the book, and I’ll be talking to you guys soon.

CK: Okay, thanks George, appreciate it.

JL: Thank you.


In my opinion, “Skinwalkers at the Pentagon” is one of the most important UFO-related books in a very long time. It shows us the direction we need to head if we want to have any chance of understanding the phenomenon.

Alternative cover by Uplifting Tweets


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