Crash Retrieval, Harry Reid

Did The Pentagon Prevent Senator Harry Reid From Seeing Debris From a UFO At Lockheed?

4 May , 2021  

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“I don’t know why [the DoD] wouldn’t want to put this to sleep, unless there’s something to it.”

~Former Senator Harry Reid


by Joe Murgia – @TheUfoJoe on Twitter.

In 2019, documents found at the estate of the late astronaut, Edgar Mitchell, were posted on Reddit and shared with the world. What came to be known as the Wilson/Davis notes, detailed an alleged 2002 meeting between recently retired Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, Admiral Thomas Wilson, and astrophysicist, Eric Davis, PhD. (Since I believe 100% that these notes are legit and the meeting took place, I will refrain from using alleged throughout the rest of this blog ~Joe)

Throughout the fifteen pages, Wilson explains to Dr. Davis how, in May of 1997, as Vice Director of Intelligence for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, he was denied access to a Special Access Program (SAP) located at one of the top aerospace technology/defense contractors in the United States. When Davis asks Wilson the name of the contractor, he won’t say but explains that the program manager of the SAP told him they’re a reverse-engineering program and they had an intact craft they “recovered years ago in the past” and they believed it could fly through, “space? air? water? dimensions?” As far as its origin, “they didn’t know where it was from but they had some ideas. It was not of this Earth, not made by man – not by human hands.” They were trying to understand and exploit the technology for years and years but progress was very slow. Despite sharing this information with Wilson, they would not let him in the door for a tour or officially brief him because, while he had the proper “tickets,” (security clearances), he was not on the BIGOT list. Why? Because he did not “meet rigorous, access criteria” and thus, “need to know authorization was not being granted.” What were those special criteria? They refused to tell him.

Included among the notes of Dr. Davis was a two-page letter, which I have no doubt is also authentic, from retired Naval Commander, Will Miller, who journalist Leslie Kean has described in her book as “a true insider.” On page one, Miller writes, “I would be willing to assist you and Hal [Puthoff] with your ongoing research into UFO crash retrievals and the entities within the government (or outside of it) that are involved in that business.” On page two, Miller offers to provide, “a list of civilian contractors who, by virtue of their past and current highly classified work, current capabilities, clearances, specialized personnel, and geographic areas of concern, most likely have current involvement in and knowledge of USG work in alien-derived technologies, crashes, landings and associated events.”

I am unaware if Drs. Davis or Puthoff ever took Miller up on his offer, but Miller’s mention of “landings” rang a bell. In May of 2019, right after Luis Elizondo confirmed to Tucker Carlson that he believes the U.S. government has material from a UFO in its possession, Dr. Davis made this comment to researcher, James Iandoli.

To me, if something has landed, it’s most likely an intact craft.

If you read my original, four-part MegaBlog, you’ll see that Dr. Davis has given very limited comments related to the Wilson/Davis notes and Admiral Wilson has repeatedly and strongly, denied their validity.


Over the years, lots of speculation has centered around which corporation/contractor (or corporations/contractors) may be the one that has the goods. Lockheed is a name that comes up often. In April of 2020, retired police Lieutenant Tim McMillan, writer and founder of The Debrief, tweeted out some information he said he heard from a former Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies (BAASS) employee who was there when the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP) contract was being carried out. Beginning in 2008. AAWSAP, which was created in large part because of the efforts of former Senator Harry Reid, was the government program that studied UFOs and related paranormal phenomena.

McMillan, via his tweets, said his BAASS source related to him that the 2002 meeting between Davis and Wilson, “was *allegedly* about crashed UFO stuff that was transferred to Lockheed Martin by the AEC in 1977. Allegedly, AEC always had the materials going back to 1947, because it was and (as the DOE) still is the most compartmentalized and secure branch of the USG. Allegedly, the fundamental understanding of any highly advanced craft lies directly on understanding the energy source, hence why AEC/DOE would be the principle jurisdiction over said alleged materials. It was supposedly transferred in 1977, because Carter wanted to make AEC a federal branch (which he did in 1979) and this would have given USG oversight. The person who told me all of this…only wished to speak on the background. Hence, why I’ve never really discussed it. At the moment, it’s just an interesting story, amongst many interesting UFO stories. Allegedly this was what Wilson would have been denied access. It was exactly like AAWSAP, a program held in private proprietary discretion.”

D. Dean Johnson asked, “Well, if that story happened to be true, who, then, would actually own the purported UFO stuff now, hypothetically speaking?”

McMillan: “Hypothetically, Lockheed Martin. Allegedly, the stuff was put up and not touched going back to the early 1960s when it  was decided scientific understanding was too far behind to be able to make use of the materials. Allegedly, that’s the crux of AAWSAP. A scientific intelligence assessment of current and projected scientific and technological innovations. Supposedly, there was someone at Lockheed working with BAASS to try and restart any analysis of supposed materials.” (Speculation: Was this person who worked at Lockheed, Steve Justice? Justice is the former director of Advanced Systems Development at Lockheed Martin’s Skunk Works division who then went on to work with Tom DeLonge’s, “To The Stars Academy of Arts and Science.”)


How sure is McMillan that his source worked for BAASS? He tweeted, “100% the person worked for BAASS and AAWSAP. Now, do I believe everything about AEC, Lockheed, etc. as being fact? No… simply because beyond their account to me, there’s no other supporting evidence. For the sake of clarity, everything I mentioned about Lockheed, AEC, etc. *DID NOT* come from Davis. Furthermore, I stress, I consider all of that other stuff to be a cool story at this point. I don’t want anyone to think I’m supporting it as fact or encouraging UFO myths. I think no matter who said it, with a story that grandiose, it would be foolish to accept it as being true without a *significant* amount of supporting evidence. Which is why I keep stressing, I’m the one who heard it and I still think it’s just a cool story or myth. It’s a catch 22 to share ‘interesting stories’ I hear. On one hand someone else could help prove or disprove them. On the other, some might just add more myth to it and before you know it, there’s 10 books and a documentary out on it. Still proving nothing.”

McMillan’s final thoughts: Assuming the Wilson/Davis notes are an accurate representation of what Wilson said to Davis in 2002, does that mean Wilson was told the truth by the SAP program manager. “Personally, I do not see the Wilson memos as ever being able to provide valid evidence for anything. Even if everything contained in them is 100% accurate, it still proves nothing. No highly classified program you don’t have tickets for is going to tell you exactly what they’re working on. So even if they told Wilson they had a secret underground alien base, that still doesn’t mean it was true, and they were actually working on AI drones. Wilson didn’t have a need to know, so therefore he wouldn’t know the truth.”


I don’t know if the program manager told Wilson the truth but the fact that Dr. Eric Davis was asked to brief people on Capitol Hill about the “retrieval from off-world vehicles not made on this earth,” tells me whoever asked him to do that trusted his information. Knowing how meticulous and detail-orientated he is, he would never present information based solely on second-hand information (Wilson) or one source. He’s had at least nineteen years to research and track down the crash retrieval program and if he says it exists, I believe him. However, for me to say, “I know our government has a crash retrieval program,” I need to see debris or a craft.

I shared all of McMillan’s Davis/Wilson/BAASS-related, tweets with Dr. Davis, just to keep him in the loop about what was being said and gave him the chance to correct the record if there were any errors. I didn’t expect a response, but on the morning of April 30th, he wrote:

“On my behalf, you are authorized to write, ‘McMillan’s BAASS source (an alleged former BAASS employee) is quite ill-informed and not in the know about the history of the legacy UAP recovery and reverse engineering studies program, because this particular topic is way above the pay grade and need-to-know access of the alleged former BAASS employee. This alleged former BAASS employee either fabricated his/her claims about Lockheed Aircraft Co., the AEC/DoE, and Jimmy Carter from out of whole cloth or he/she is reporting someone else’s uninformed opinions or he/she is reporting very old, unfounded rumors that circulate widely within UFOlogy.'”

~Dr. Eric Davis

So, should Lockheed be crossed off the list as a potential contractor in possession of anomalous materials? Not so fast.

On a related note, McMillan appears to have an anti-UFO crash retrieval bias that dates back to an article he co-wrote in 2019 with journalist, Tyler Rogoway, editor-in-chief of, “The War Zone.”

Due to their ultra-secretive nature, Unacknowledged or Waived-Unacknowledged SAPs, serve as fertile breeding grounds for conspiracies of hidden crashed UFO technology or veiled government “carve-outs” whereby the general public’s benefit is an afterthought. In truth, USAPs or Waived USAPs, like anything else that lacks accessibly verifiable fact, is likely very mythicized.


Soon after I published my MegaBlog on the Wilson/Davis documents, the New York Times published an article featuring quotes and information related to crash retrievals from the former head of the Pentagon’s UFO program, Luis Elizondo, former Nevada Senator, Harry Reid and Dr. Davis. Here are the relevant excerpts.

While retired officials involved with the effort — including Harry Reid, the former Senate majority leader — hope the program will seek evidence of vehicles from other worlds, its main focus is on discovering whether another nation, especially any potential adversary, is using breakout aviation technology that could threaten the United States.

Mr. Elizondo is among a small group of former government officials and scientists with security clearances who, without presenting physical proof, say they are convinced that objects of undetermined origin have crashed on earth with materials retrieved for study.

Reid said he believed that crashes of objects of unknown origin may have occurred and that retrieved materials should be studied. “After looking into that, I came to the conclusion that there were reports – some were substantive, some not so substantive – that there were actual materials that the government and the private sector had in their possession.”

Eric W. Davis, an astrophysicist who worked as a subcontractor and then a consultant for the Pentagon U.F.O. program since 2007, said that, in some cases, examination of the materials had so far failed to determine their source and led him to conclude, “We couldn’t make it ourselves.”

Mr. Davis…said he gave a classified briefing to a Defense Department agency as recently as March about retrievals from “off-world vehicles not made on this earth.”

Mr. Davis said he also gave classified briefings on retrievals of unexplained objects to staff members of the Senate Armed Services Committee on Oct. 21, 2019 and to staff member of the Senate Intelligence Committee two days later.

Mr. Reid said, more should be made public to clarify what is known and what is not. “It is extremely important that information about the discovery of physical materials or retrieved craft come out,” he said.

NYT Correction:

Mr. Reid said he believed that crashes of objects of unknown origin may have occurred and that retrieved materials should be studied; he did not say that crashes had occurred and that retrieved materials had been studied secretly for decades.

One week after The Times’ article was published, George Knapp reported, “Reid’s staffers reacted to The Time’s story by demanding a correction, which The Times provided. But, the reporters say, they still stand by the story and the quote from Reid. Reid then fired off a pointed message on social media, reiterating that he has no knowledge of, and never suggested that the government  has debris from flying saucers or others worlds.”


Reid hasn’t always been consistent with his willingness to speculate on whether our government might possess these materials and towards the end of this blog, I’ll share a few ideas on why I feel that might be the case.

Back in 2001, astrophysicist Bernard Haisch PhD, author of more than 130 scientific publications and the former scientific editor of the Astrophysics Journal, wrote an essay entitled, “Black Special Access Programs.” Dr. Haisch was also a staff scientist at the Lockheed Martin Solar and Astrophysics Lab. For more on his impressive resume, check this out.

Excerpt from his essay…

“It is easier to keep a program hidden in a contractor facility than in a government facility. Deeply buried programs in contractor facilities are called “carve outs” (referring to the budget). A crash retrieval or some classified continuation of Project Blue Book would likely exist as a deep, black industrial-based SAP. A program involving hardware would be considered technology rather than intelligence and most likely fall under the office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics. Ironically, for such a program, even someone having an intelligence “ticket” at the highest level would not be considered to have a need to know. All of this results in very effective isolation and virtually no one in a position of open civilian governmental authority, being cognizant of this after a time even though at least in principle of the Special Access Program oversight committee, SAPOC, should be cognizant of such a program. I do not know of any fundamentally limiting factors in the potential longevity of a program. The extreme compartmentalization and limited oversight would tend to keep a program in existence, perhaps indefinitely. Political leaders come and go, pandering to the masses for votes in the eyes of many within the military and intelligence communities, and as a result have varying degrees of respect and trust in that world. Deep Black programs can become quite independent of any given administration, and it would certainly be unrealistic to assume that a given president has been briefed on every SAP. A president does not automatically have a need to know. Moreover, Freedom Of Information Act requests cannot penetrate Unacknowledged Special Access Programs.”

In 2018, a few months after the existence of AATIP (Pentagon UFO program)  was revealed in the New York Times, Dr. Haisch had this to say:

“The following is conjecture. Sources tell me that this is merely the tip of the iceberg. A group of four related, but separate, unacknowledged SCI programs tracing back to a 1947 Truman memorandum still exist and were housed, as of the 1990s, in major aerospace companies such as, for example: Lockheed, TRW, Raytheon, Aerospace Corp. etc. These would be expensive programs since the cost of secrecy can be several times higher than the research. The [AATIP] program has no relation to these four, much better funded, deep black ones. Indeed, the black programs collectively have budgets in the $10B ranch and up. Topics apparently include both reverse engineering and extraterrestrial biology. The AATIP did find the UFO crash retrieval program, via official channels, but was denied access to it because the AATIP itself is not a SAP. Senator Harry Reid petitioned the DoD to confer SAP status to the AATIP but the DoD denied his request.”

Are these four, UFO-related SAPs, the same ones filmmaker and researcher, Jeremy Corbell spoke about back in 2018?


And the ones investigative reporter, George Knapp referenced in April of 2019 at UFO MegaCon?

“So when you’ve heard people talking about this – we’ve reported it a couple of times – that AATIP is one of several programs and I think that there are several underway right now. As many as four is what I’ve heard. I don’t know the names of the other ones.”

~George Knapp


Last year, researcher and UFO archivist extraordinaire, Giuliano Marinkovic, wrote about the similarities between certain details in Jacques Vallée’s 2006 novel, “Stratagem,” and the Wilson/Davis notes. Right after the book was published, Vallée told a French FM station that it was a novel, but, “there is a lot of things between the lines.”

Recently, Twitter user and fantastic UFO-related merchandise artist, Dan Zetterstrom, aka “The Zignal,” noticed a few Lockheed references in “Stratagem.” I’ll include those below. But I found another interesting detail in the book that’s probably me trying to stretch it into relevancy. Corbell and Haisch reference four programs with Haisch referencing “reverse engineering.” On page 173 of “Stratagem,” Vallée writes:

“What about the secret project, the genuine research about UFOs? Whatever happened to it?”

“When they moved our teams out of New Mexico, they scattered us to four different centers. The main physics studies were transferred here…”

Yep, it’s a stretch. But here are the Lockheed references that were noticed by “The Zignal.” Page 186.

“So you don’t have a reputation for naivete’? Then you must have heard about Special Access Programs.”

“I’m having trouble believing you manage a classified project like any other.”

“We are not managing this project. We simply contribute a strategic component to it. Others are responsible for technical control.”

“Lockheed? TRW? Northrop?”

“Keep going!” He didn’t even try to hide his amusement. “You have left out Boeing, and a few others who are less visible in the media.”

And on page 92-93…

“Do you think this secret project you stumbled on is still active?” 

“No doubt! I also think they have some critical data. It would have to be stupefying in order to warrant this level of secrecy. But our two audits must have scared them. I think they’ve transferred the project outside of government — into private industry. ” 

Why would they ever do that?” asked Kevin. “They’d run the risk of losing control.” 

“Just the opposite! In private hands, the project isn’t subject to any official audit. They can split it up, divide it among a few companies trusted by the Pentagon. People who keep their own secrets. You’ll never find them. A Lockheed, a TRW, for instance. They’re exempt from freedom of information rules. The Act doesn’t touch them. That’s why I feel so frustrated, like everybody else who’s brushed up against this thing, who know something really big is being kept under wraps.” 


<Begin Excerpt from Part 3 of my MegaBlog>

Investigative reporter, George Knapp spoke with Senator Reid in January 2019 about his attempt to turn AATIP into a Special Access Program, in part, so it might gain access to evidence that has not yet been made public.

Reporter George Knapp: “It suggests there might be other studies and programs that might shed light on this?”

Harry Reid: “Other programs that have been done and information they have, including different pieces of evidence.”


On March 15th, 2019, Mellon’s colleague at “To The Stars,” Luis Elizondo, who ran the Pentagon’s UFO program, known at AATIP, gave a lecture at the Scientific Coalition for UFOlogy in Alabama. During the Q&A portion, the subject of crash retrievals came up.

Q: “Have we attempted to shoot down any UAP? Have we succeeded? Have we recovered any tech or beings, dead or alive?”

Elizondo: (shaking his head back and forth) “I can’t answer those questions.”

Hoffman: “Out of curiosity, did AATIP program look at or consider any of the stuff that like maybe, Len Stringfield did with the crash retrievals or look into any of those crashes?”

Elizondo: “I can’t.”


On June 5th, 2019, [former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, Christopher] Mellon was a guest on “The Fox News Breakdown” and the subject of SAPs came up again.

Narration: Area 51 isn’t just something in a movie. He’s been there. And it was part of his job as Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, to know what happens there. The secrets kept there.

Harris Faulkner: But everyone wants to know if there’s aliens like in Independence Day? Are there aliens floating in a tank?

Christopher Mellon: What I will say on that particular topic is that there are eight individuals in Congress, stipulated by law: Section 119 of Title 10, specifically, who can ask that question and get…and deserve and are entitled to a straight answer from the Department of Defense.

Harris Faulkner: Really?

Christopher Mellon: I used to help prepare the briefing book that went to these eight members. So, by law, even the most sacred and tightly held special access programs are required by law to be shared with these eight members. Now they don’t have to take the briefings, and they often don’t, because they’re doing other things and they’re very busy and it’s rather technical and it doesn’t necessarily advance their careers. But that information is available to them. And they are entitled to ask and get a straight answer.

Harris Faulkner: So I don’t have to be president to know this stuff? All I have to do is be one of these eight members of Congress?

Christopher Mellon: In theory.

Senator Reid was part of the entitled, Gang of Eight. In my blog/transcript (Of Mellon’s interview ~Joe), I made a big deal about the “in theory” part of Mellon’s answer. And I also think “deserve” and “entitled” stick out, too. As in…

Yes, they should be able to get that information, in theory, and deserve it and are entitled to it. But in reality, some of these programs are buried so deep, you’ll never know about them unless someone in the know informs you and tells you where to look. I reached out to a government insider to see if they could shed some light on the issue.

“Various people within the United States government, in positions of oversight and who you would think had access to all UAP programs, did not find the UAP crash retrieval program when they looked because they never knew of its existence. I, and others in my circle, have discussed the topic with them of how one cannot find waived-unacknowledged SAPs that operate outside of Section 119 of Title 10. In fact, a DoD office can create a shell company and then transfer funds to it under an unremarkable commercial defense services contract. Then that shell company turns around and gives a subcontract to a third-party aerospace/defense firm that hosts a waived-unacknowledged SAP that operates outside of Sect. 119 of Title 10. This usually hides (making the audit trail terminate at the shell company) the flow of money going to the third party company that’s running a waived-unacknowledged SAP where a UAP crash retrieval program is hidden.”

That source just explained what’s going on and how the UAP crash retrieval program is hidden. It’s possible others have described that sleight of hand elsewhere but I’ve never heard it before. Hopefully, readers can chime in and let me know on Twitter. Folks like Admiral Wilson can’t find programs like that unless someone gives them the code words and they get help from others who can point them in the right direction. Of course, as Wilson showed, even if you find the culprits, it doesn’t mean you’re getting the grand tour that includes access to the flying saucer museum.

On June 12th of 2019, Former Senator Harry Reid was the guest on KNPR’s “State of Nevada” with Joe Schoenmann. After my March interview with the Senator, I was disappointed in myself for not doing a better job when I had the chance, so I emailed, tweeted and called-in with questions I should have asked him two months prior. Reid made it clear the key to finding a hidden SAP is knowing it exists in the first place. Schoemann asked my emailed question to Reid.

Joe Schoenmann (JS): “Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, Chris Mellon, on the radio, said there are eight members of of Congress who should be given access to some of the most sacred and special held Special Access Programs. Is that’s true and we’re one of the eight, were you ever denied access to one of these programs related to UFOs?”

Senator Harry Reid (HR): “Under the law, the eight leaders of Congress, House and Senate, are entitled to be given information that others don’t get. That’s the law. And it’s up to the administration to determine what they feel they need to give us. I think that’s appropriate. As to whether or not they should give us everything? My past experience is that even though the eight are usually very, very creible and honest and try not to blab things out to the press, sometimes it happens. So the adminstration has to be very careful what they give us.”

JS: “Were you ever denied access when you wanted it?”

HR: Well, but the point is, you don’t know if you were denied access unless you know what you’re looking for.”

JS: “I’ve just got the feeling that you know a lot more about these things than you can probably ever talk about. Am I right?”

HR: “I was very fortunate, being the leader, that I was entitled to be briefed by the head of the CIA on a very frequent basis. A couple of times a month, I would meet in a secure place in the Capitol and I would meet with the head of the CIA and learn about what was going on with whatever he wanted to talk about and questions I had. So that was very enlightening.”

I also called-in a question.

Caller Joe Murgia: “Senator! Luis Elizondo recently said on a news program that, based on his decades of experience working for the government, he believes that the United States government has material from a UFO in its possession. If that’s true, do you think the American people deserve to know this? And if it’s locked up in a Special Access Program, how do we get access to it? And have you ever learned anything about this?”

HR: “I hate to throw a wet blanket on this, Joe, but I don’t believe the United States has material from an Unidentified Flying Object. I just don’t believe that. I don’t know who you said, said that but maybe they were misunderstood because I simply don’t believe it.”

<End MegaBlog Excerpt>


He doesn’t believe it. But does he suspect it? If you’re a little confused right now, I don’t blame you. Especially after you read this excerpt from The New Yorker article and podcast, published on April 30th of this year.

“I was told for decades that Lockheed had some of these retrieved materials,” [Reid] said. “And I tried to get, as I recall, a classified approval by the Pentagon to have me go look at the stuff. They would not approve that. I don’t know what all the numbers were, what kind of classification it was, but they would not give that to me.” He told me that the Pentagon had not provided a reason. I asked if that was why he’d requested sap status for aatip. He said, “Yeah, that’s why I wanted them to take a look at it. But they wouldn’t give me the clearance.” (A representative of Lockheed Martin declined to comment for this article.)

In a June 24th, 2018 interview with George Knapp on Coast to Coast AM, Dr. Davis was asked to give his opinion on where we’d be right now if AAWSAP/AATIP/BAASS hadn’t lost funding. Put two and two together and it certainly appears one of the reasons Reid wanted to upgrade AAWSAP to SAP status was to get access to the crash retrieval program he was told existed.

“…the crash retrieval program, it’s still there. And we would have gotten into the crash retrieval program using the legal authorizations that would open the door [for] us. And we would have gotten access to it and that would have exponentially increased our knowledge base and understanding since we don’t have a Tic Tac in possession right now. We’re not in possession of one.”

~Dr. Eric Davis

Just a note for future reference: Dr. Davis specifically said “Tic Tac” when referencing a type of craft that we do not have in our possession. That doesn’t mean we don’t have other types of craft. A saucer? A triangle? Tuck that away for now and I’ll revisit it at a later date.

Back to this July 2020 report by Knapp that came out right after the controversial New York Times article where they had to issue a correction. I had no idea (I probably just forgot) Reid had told Knapp about trying, and failing, to get access to materials kept at a public corporation. The only thing missing in this 2020 interview was the name of the company, which we now know is Lockheed.

Knapp Voice-over: “In 2009, Reid tried to create a special access program, intended to interact with other, secret programs that may or may not have additional evidence or materials, related to the UFO mystery.”

Reid: “One reason I did that is there’s always this rumor…some people say that they’re some public corporations that have materials that we should look at.  Now, I wanted to make sure that that was valid or not valid, but I couldn’t get, they wouldn’t…the Defense Department wouldn’t approve it.”

Knapp: “What do you think of that? Do you think somebody’s got pieces or a craft, and do you ever…”

Reid: “But I don’t know, George. I don’t know why they wouldn’t want to put this to sleep, unless there’s something to it [that] I don’t understand. But that’s why…” (Reid’s voice trails off)

Knapp voice-over: While The Times stands by its reporting, persons close to Reid say, the Senator feels his comments were unfairly characterized.

The segment ended with this exclusive comment from Reid to KLAS.


If Lockheed is indeed one of the contractors that has materials or debris from a UFO, and it’s in a SAP, would they have been worried that another company (BAASS) would win the bid on a UFO-related program/contract (AAWSAP) in 2007, with the potential to achieve SAP status and eventually get access to the Lockheed stash? This tweet by Knapp proves nothing but given what we know now about Reid trying to visit Lockheed, it’s interesting.


As far as Mellon and his thoughts on a crash retrieval program, his thoughts have evolved and I documented a few of those in my MegaBlog and elsewhere.

Starting with a 2016 interview with investigative reporter, Leslie Kean.

“I’d love to believe we have a crashed saucer somewhere, but I’ve never seen anything remotely supportive of such incredible claims.

“I find it hard to imagine something as explosive as recovered alien technology remaining under wraps for decades. So while I have no reason to believe there is any recovered alien technology, I will say this: If it were me, and I were trying to bury it deep, I’d take it outside government oversight entirely and place it in a compartment as a new entity within an existing defense company.”

~Christopher Mellon


On July 15th of 2020, Bryce Zabel, co-creator of the alien-themed, sci-fi series,  “Dark Skies” tweeted this.


On the July 19th, 2020 episode of “Coast to Coast” with George Knapp:

Mellon:”There are a lot of rumors, of course, about the U.S. government and what they may have. In that regard, there’s nothing I can say about that that anyone would believe or take seriously, regarding what the answer I provided (laughs).”

Knapp: “I’ll believe ya.”

Mellon: “(laughs) Well thank you for the invitation to destroy my meager reputation.”

GK: (Laughs)

CM: “But, you know, eventually we, you know, hopefully there’s a process beginning now to take hold that will bring information forward and lead to answers around all of these questions.”


In August of 2020, Mellon was the guest on CNN’s “Smerconish.”

Michael Smerconish (MC): “One astrophysicist, who has worked for the Pentagon’s UFO program since 2007, told the NYT that he gave a classified briefing to a Defense Department agency about retrievals of ‘off-world vehicles, not made on this Earth.’ I was quoting Eric Davis – I know you’re familiar with his work – when I read that New York Times paragraph a moment ago. Do you believe that there are objects in our possession – broadly defined, our possession – that are from, something other than this Earth?”

Christopher Mellon: “What I’ll say about that is that I think that assertion should be taken seriously. I’m aware of…I know Eric very well. I understand his arguments. I was present in his briefings on the Hill and he tried to provide some leads for them to follow to enable them to potentially confirm this. It is an issue that should be taken seriously. In fact, curiously, President Trump himself, on Father’s Day, indicated, on air, while being filmed, that he did have classified information about Roswell, New Mexico. Which, as most people know, is the legendary site of an alleged crash of a UFO. And when asked by his son about that, about declassifying it, he said, ‘I’ll have to think about it.’ I don’t know what there is about Roswell that could be classified or interesting other than that one particular issue. So, there is a lot of new press and new information coming forward and again, as I said, I think this is a topic that the oversight committees should take seriously and investigate.”


On May 1st of this year, MUFON uploaded a recent interview of Mellon conducted by Ron James.

Christopher Mellon: “There is the possibility that there is some very small, tightly held, close-hold group, for an example, that had some crash debris or something. And was working at the duress of the department and even we didn’t know about, at the Special Access Program Oversight Committee, or was in some sub-compartment that was limited to the director or something, you know? So that’s always possible.”


Mellon on Rogan

On May 5th, a wide-ranging interview between mega-popular podcaster, Joe Rogan and Mellon, was uploaded to Spotify.

Joe Rogan (JR): “Whether you believe Bob Lazar or not, the thing Bob Lazar talked about that’s fascinating was this possibility that we have obtained some extraterrestrial craft and that we are in the process of trying to back engineer it.”

Christopher Mellon (CM): “Yeah, that’s a really ticklish question for me and awkward. If I were to say, ‘Yep, it’s true,’ nobody would believe me. If I really knew, I couldn’t say, ‘Yes.’ And yet… So it’s hard to give good answers to that question. I think it’s plausible. I don’t think that people should rule that out, it’s a legitimate question to ask. There’s enough information to suggest something like that may have happened. We may have recovered some debris.”

JR: “What information?”

CM: “Well, there’s some books about Roswell, there’s some other cases like that where people have come forward and said, ‘I was in the military and I was at this retrieval,’ or ‘I was a kid and I saw this thing crash and I ran up to it and I saw what was inside it’ and blah, blah, blah. In fact, there’s some investigation going on right now on a new case. So, it’s not an off-the-wall question, it’s a legitimate question. I think the way it would probably play out in our government is that it would be so deeply squirreled away that you wouldn’t be able to bring in the best scientists, you wouldn’t be able to bring in world-class scientists. You would have available, maybe, a few people inside some aerospace company and they’d probably be very hamstring in their ability to test and examine the material and so forth. You know, it’d just be locked away somewhere.”

After more discussion about Roswell, the multitude of alleged witnesses and the Air Force changing their story, Mellon continued.

CM: “I will tell you…I’ve never said this before…but I’ve been told by multiple people, who have credentials and access, that there is some truth to these stories. I don ‘t discount this when people say this. I’ve had people tell me, people that have substantial, scientific or military credentials, that they believe it’s true. So, I encourage people on the Hill to pursue it. They’ve got a task force going right now, looking into this, trying to understand what’s happening in these restricted military areas. If you’re opening that up, ask all the tough questions. Ask about the military bases and the nuclear weapons. Ask whether there’s anything buried somewhere, whether there’s materials that we have. It’s been a long time, I think the people can handle it, the public. It’s their government, it’s their money. I say go for it, let’s find out the truth. Get to the bottom line.”

JR: “Where do you think that stuff could be? If they did really recover…”

CM: “Oh, yeah, well…we have a number of candidate places, so…”

JR: “Hangar 18?”

CM: “Area 51, there’s Wright Patt. there’s Edwards…there’s a whole lot of places, depending on what you were dong with it. If you just wanted to squirrel it away, there’s some facilities not too far from here, in the Southwest, where you dispose of nuclear waste and other things, so there’s a lot of possibilities.”

JR: “But wouldn’t you…like, who’s got the key?”

CM: “Good question.”

JR: “And who…and that person’s dead, right? We’re talking about several generations. Like, how do you get the golden key? Here we got people from 1947, that were in the military, and they were adults. Most likely dead now, right?

CM: “Yep.”

JR: “We’re talking seventy years later…”

CM: “Not too many World War II vets around.”

JR: “So, how does that torch get passed? Do they trot out new scientists, occasionally, when they’ve sufficiently compromised them on Epstein’s island? (laughs)”

CM: “We have an amazingly dense, complex security apparatus and some people say, ‘Oh, you can’t keep stuff secret a long time.’ That’s not true at all. We keep lots of stuff secret for decades and there are reporters in DC that think they’ve got the inside track and they know most of the secret stuff. People who think that are clueless. They really have no idea.”

JR: “Yeah, I think it’s pretty delusional to think the government can’t keep secrets like a crashed UFO. It’s pretty delusional.”

CM: “Well, the F-117 and the B-2 bomber…when they rolled the F-117 out, it was already operational up at Tonapah. And it was a mission-read unit, they were flying, and people were shocked, all around the world. People had no idea. So this thing had been built, there were tens of thousands of people involved in the production, the design, the deployment. And there are many smaller things that would be much easier to conceal for a long time. Weapons programs stuff almost never leaks.”

JR: “If you were the president, wouldn’t that be the first thing you would ask? What would you do, immediately?”

CM: “I’d wanna know the Department of Energy (DoE), I’d wanna know all of their special programs as one thing. I’d wanna have a sit down with the director of operations of CIA. I’d wanna review the waived, special access programs, Section 119 of Title 10, that most of Congress is exempted from reporting to. It’s a very high category of DoD programs. There’s some things like that.”

Note: Once again, according to my government, insider source, you need to know exactly where to look if you wanna find the crash retrieval program. 


CM: “There is a briefing the president gets, of course, shortly after being elected, that covers a lot of the strategic nuclear warfare, some of the key, Top Secret things that he really needs to know, has to know, should now. And then there’s a category of things that are…should we tell him or not? (laughs) There’s too much stuff, obviously, to convey so they gotta pick and choose. Some things are no brainers, other things are judgment calls.”

JR: What do you think the Department of Energy could be working on?

CM: “DoE has got its hands in a lot of different areas, in terms of power and production and other kinds of things and I’d be very interested to know…they don’t seem to get much oversight. Unlike the defense department and the intelligence community, they have a lot of oversight from Capitol Hill, for example. DoE, I don’t think, necessarily discloses its black programs to its oversight committee, the Energy and Public Works Committee. I’m not sure how that works over there. I don’t think they get the same level of review.

“Not all the R&D is in secret. They’re doing a lot of good stuff related to energy and power and solar power and stuff that’s public, open source. It’s really, mostly nuclear weapons related stuff that is secret, that is really, really close hold. But that can cover a lot of ground, there’s been a lot of innovation. That’s an example where the public doesn’t know, shouldn’t know… we wouldn’t want that information to be released, a lot of the details of that. It wouldn’t be in our interest or the public’s interest and there’s a lot going on there. It was, for me, the one, sort of pie that I didn’t have a lot deep access to. I had some access to those programs but I had a much, more prolonged  and intimate relationship with the defense and intelligence community.”

JR: “Now,  if you became president and you wanted to find out more information about UAP or UFOs or whatever you wanna call ’em, how would you go about doing that? Where would you start?”

CM: “That’s an interesting question, too, because it’s so convoluted, these things. I would start at the agency and the Air Force. That’s where you’re most likely to find these things. If there’s a program like that, that’s most likely where it is.”

JR: “And how would you even get to the right person? Because the number of people that have all the information has to be pretty small, so you’d have to be real careful  about who you have lunch with.”

CM: “Yeah, absolutely. When you’ve worked in the field a long time you get some ideas of where to go and who to talk to.:

JR: “You think you got an idea on who to go and who to talk to?”

CM: “Yeah, I have some ideas.”

JR: “Yeah?”

CM: “Yeah. Yeah, they’d know where a lot of the budgets and offices…”

JR: “Imagine walking around with that information, though?”

CM: “Yeah!”

JR: “Imagine being a guy who’s walking around knowing that somewhere in the middle of the Nevada desert, there’s a UFO, that definitely came from another planet, that’s being guarded 24/7, and if the public saw it, it would shatter their belief in reality.”

CM: “Yeah, crazy.



In the accompanying podcast The New Yorker put online, journalist Gideon Lewis-Kraus (GLK) asked Reid about the subject of crash retrievals. He brought up the same comment I did rom Elizondo on Tucker.

GLK: “One question that I have, has to do with this issue of potential, retrieved crash debris that was reported on last summer. It certainly seems like many of the figures you’ve described, like Lue Elizondo, he went on Tucker Carlson and Carlson said, ‘Do you believe that there’s compelling evidence that we have retrieved crash debris?’ And Elizondo said ‘Yes.'”

Senator Harry Reid (HR): Well, I don’t know what he knows but he must know something I don’t know because I cannot confirm all that.

GLK: “Yeah, it doesn’t seem like anybody really knows of any but certainly, my guess is that you and I have both heard the same stories. There are these stories that circulate that some people, at least, find pretty credible and compelling.”

HR: “Well, and that’s…I have no problem with that. I personally can’t confirm that and I think [if] people can come up with a little more clearer foundation on that, I’ll like it even more. But right now, I haven’t seen that.”

Reid then talks about Lockheed (that I posted above) and not getting approval to see the alleged, recovered materials. Here’s one small part they left out of the article.

GLK: Did [the Pentagon] give you a reason for [not approving your request to go to Lockheed and see the materials]?

SHR: No, they didn’t have to. It was a yes or a no, and it was a no.

Narration by GLK: Okay, to be clear, Harry Reid is not saying that he knows for a fact that some private military contractor somewhere, in an obscure hangar, has crash debris retrieved from a UFO. He did, however, suspect enough substance in these rumors that he personally tried to get to the bottom of that. And as Senate Majority Leader, he made an effort to secure Pentagon approval to go and visit these military contractors. He was denied. Now, the overwhelming likelihood is that this was just an elaborate, multi-generational game of murky, Cold War, flying saucer telethon. And that at some point, we had in fact retrieved crash debris from a secret, Soviet spy satellite. And that over time, in an atmosphere of opacity and paranoia, that became a story of secret, UFO crash debris. It could be that, but now, we’re here.


Let’s look at Lewis-Kraus’ opinion that the “overwhelming likelihood” is Reid was denied access to a secret, Soviet spy satellite. And let’s add in some made up details that it crashed in a desolate area of upstate N.Y. in 1961. According to Christopher Mellon, Reid, who was a member of the Gang of Eight, should, by law, have had access to “even the most sacred and tightly held special access programs.” So why would the Pentagon deny him access to such debris? Answer: They wouldn’t.


Immediately after The New Yorker article was published with Reid’s comments about Lockheed, a friend of mine who works in the intel world and who has his/her own reasons for believing the Wilson/Davis notes are the real deal, sent me this text:

“Holy shit, Joe! Sen. Reid has pretty much solidified it for me. I have always been 99.99% sure that Adm. Tom Wilson flew out to Lockheed Martin Corp. in Sunnyvale, CA to talk to them about getting read into the UFO program. Everything he described to Eric Davis reads verbatim like the exact place I’ve been to dozens of times. Plus it ALL makes sense given what all is located on the LMC-SV campus. “

~Anonymous Intel Source to Me, After Reading    New Yorker UFO article


In the season finale of Season 1 of “Unidentified,” that aired in June of 2019, Christopher Mellon asked Reid about aliens.

Mellon: Bob Bigelow recently said on national TV (“60 Minutes”) that he absolutely believes, not only that alien life exists, but that aliens are here… that aliens are visiting Earth. You share that view?”

Reid: “I feel it would be, from a Congressional standpoint, it would affect my credibility if I started talking about everything I know.”


Is Reid still worried about his credibility? Is that why he waffles ever so slightly on whether or not he feels our government has material from a UFO? Maybe. He’s careful to differentiate between what he’s heard and what he knows so why did he use the word “know” in the “Unidentified” interview? It’s a bit confusing. I think he suspects our government, or a contractor (like Lockheed) working with our government, has material or debris but that’s a lot different than believing or knowing. As he said, why didn’t the Pentagon grant him access in order to put the UFO crash-retrieval rumor to bed?

Mellon’s evolution on the possibility of a crash retrieval program tucked away in a tough-to-find, SAP may have to do with him being educated along the way about how such a program could be hidden. At some point, someone explained to him how programs like that can exist and avoid being discovered by the Gang of Eight and the Special Access Program Oversight Committee (SAPOC) and he’s adjusted his opinion because of it. But, like Reid, unless he sees it for himself, he can’t say for sure that it exists.

Staying on the subject of credibility, on December 20th, 2020, Elizondo was the guest on Coast to Coast AM with George Knapp. I called in and asked him to share his opinion about the Wilson/Davis notes.

Elizondo: “Joe, let me start by answering your question by saying…I’ve had the honor and privilege of knowing Eric Davis personally. He is of impeccable character. And if you know him personally, you’d realize that – we actually laugh about it – it’s almost impossible for this guy to lie (Laughs). I think if you were to put a knife to his throat and say, ‘Lie,” he probably wouldn’t be able to do it. It’s just the kind of guy he is. I’ve known him personally for quite some time, of his work and, of course, him as an individual. So, I have 100% faith and confidence in what he and/or Hal Puthoff have to say.

“I wasn’t there for the Wilson incident. I will tell you that it has happened where very senior people are not briefed into certain topics. I’m living proof of it. I was in AATIP and there were people in my chain of command that were not briefed into the program and it really didn’t matter how senior they were. If you weren’t on the list, you weren’t getting briefed, period. And that’s just the way the cookie crumbles. So, is it unfathomable to think that somebody of Admiral Wilson’s stature wouldn’t be briefed into a SAP? No, it’s not. If you were to talk to Chris Mellon, he would tell you, for the first six months of him and I talking, he didn’t know anything about what we were doing. I think he speculated but he wasn’t brought in behind the green curtain.

“Now, do I believe quote, unquote, the details in the document? I don’t know because I don’t know the provenance of that document. I haven’t asked Eric anything about…Dr. Davis or Hal about the Wilson document because, frankly, it’s not really my business. It occurred at a time when I was not engaged in this topic. And, I figure, if they wanna tell me, they can tell me but I’m not going to ask and I haven’t asked and that’s really out of respect for our friendship. They have seemed a little bit uncomfortable addressing the topic so, as a friend, I’m not gonna put them in a situation where they’re gonna have to answer that question. It’s just out of respect for them. And I mean it sincerely. I haven’t asked them any details about it. You can ask them yourself. It’s just a respect thing. Just because you’re my colleagues, my friends and you know, I figured, if they wanted to tell me, they would tell me. Otherwise, I know how to mind my own business.”

On February 2nd of this year, Elizondo was on Fade to Back with Jimmy Church and the subject of Dr. Davis, the New York Times and crash retrievals came up again.

Jimmy Church: “At the bottom [of the last NYT article on crash retrievals], there’s this little quote from Dr. Eric Davis saying that he briefed the Senate and told them we are in possession of flying saucers (You can scroll back up and see that that’s not exactly what the NYT reported Dr. Davis said to them. ~Joe) There’s no way to read between the lines on this, it was a very clear quote. And the New York Times had to vet the quote. They’re not gonna put that in the New York Times without shaving something sourced there. They were comfortable with it, correct? What’s Eric Davis talking about?”

Elizondo: “Well, I’d have to defer to my friend Eric Davis, you know? He said what he said, you know? If you know Eric Davis, you’ll realize that he’s got a really interesting personality trait. He’s one of the few people – I often joke – on the planet that can’t lie. Literally, there’s a quirk there, in the personality…the guy…as I’ve said before, I think you could put a knife to the guy’s throat and he’s gonna die. You can try to force him to lie but he just, he can’t do it. So, I’ve had the honor and privilege to work both directly and indirectly with Eric. He is a man of utmost credibility and he has served this nation honorably. There are things that he has done for this nation that he will never take credit for but I’ve seen the reporting, I know exactly what he’s done and he’s a true asset to our nation. So when he tells you that he’s done something, I would take that to the bank.”

Church:  “Are we in possession of a flying saucer, our government?”

Elizondo: “Umm, let me say this, let me put it this way. It is my personal belief that we are in possession of tangible evidence. Call it material, call it whatever you want, and that is all I’m prepared to say at this time. I have to be very, very careful not the cross the line. I know wanna know and I understand. And people say, ‘Oh, you keep hiding behind your NDA as an excuse.’ No, I’m not, actually, I don’t wanna go to jail, frankly. And second of all, I don’t wanna betray the trust of the American people. I have a security clearance, which isn’t just given from the government. It is entrusted upon me by the American people and I’m not going to betray that just to go ahead to get a few Likes, if you will, on Twitter. I take that oath seriously and when I’m finally relieved of that, or the information becomes declassified, then I will talk all day about it. But until that time comes, I have to be very, very careful, very mindful of everything I say. And I don’t want to jeopardize the momentum we have gained over the last three years by saying something that has the potential to halt, stop, hinder the progress that we’re making.”

* * * * *

For those who never read my MegaBlog on Wilson/Davis, here’s large excerpt on Dr. Eric Davis and his thoughts on the UAP Crash Retrieval program and how information can be learned about programs, even if you’re not read into them. When reading these comments from Dr. Davis, keep in mind what Elizondo said about him.

He’s a man of utmost credibility.

It’s almost impossible for him to lie.

“When he tells you that he’s done something, I would take that to the bank.”


Dr. Eric Davis MegaBlog Excerpt…

On the January 28, 2018 episode of Coast to Coast AM with George Knapp, Dr. Davis described a UFO sighting he had in Tuscon, Arizona in May of 1989, while doing his PhD dissertation on the Voyager missions to Jupiter. Davis, his wife and other students were at a swimming party in the back of his dissertation supervisor’s house when he and his wife saw a black, Boomerang-shaped object in broad daylight. In July of 1996, he went on to work for Robert Bigelow’s National Institute of Discovery Science (NIDS), which investigated and researched UFOs and all kinds of anomalous science. And as Dr. Davis says in the interview, “the rest is history.”

He went on to work at the infamous Skinwalker Ranch and had numerous, anomalous/paranormal experiences while there. In a message to me earlier this year, the astrophysicist who’s never at a loss for words, told me, “I was there from Sept. 1996 until Aug. 2001 when Bob Bigelow terminated all ranch field trips for a lack of activity there or elsewhere in the Uinta Basin. My last day at NIDS was April 30, 2002 because my job got eliminated to cut the NIDS payroll.”

In May 2018, Davis was the guest on Open Minds UFO Radio, with host, Alejandro Rojas. Eventually, the conversation turned to UFO crashes and while Rojas said he was pretty skeptical about the subject, Davis jumped right in and said there have been crashes all over the world. Since these details are so important, I’m going to transcribe everything that Dr. Davis said.

Dr. Eric Davis: “There have been crashes. The superpowers on the Earth have had their share of crashes and they have recovered the vehicles from those crashes. That’s why Jacques Vallee and I agree that even though these things behave like a conscious, spiritual, psychic entity, they do have an advanced technology, they have hardware and there’s a craft. And there’s occupants or UFOnauts…that Vallee calls them. So there’s UFOnauts running these craft, whatever they may be.

“They have that technology, we do, too. And it’s a very super-sensitive topic because it’s something that your listeners are probably going to be shocked at. Probably a minute fraction, like less than one, one thousandth (1/1000) or one, one-hundred thousandth (1/100,000) of the people with the need to know access, need to know authorization, and security clearances to be involved with that type of work, are the only ones that know. The vast majority of the rest of government really doesn’t know. And that’s why one hand, like the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing…virtually because of the stove-piping that goes on in compartmentalized programs. You just can’t knock on doors and say, “Hey! Here’s who I am. I’ve got clearances but not the right ones. I don’t have the need to know but I wanna know, so can you tell me?” And you’re going to be lied to, because that’s the rule.

“You don’t want to tell the enemy anything when this guy who’s knocking on your door asking you about UFO crashes, could be an asset for the Soviet Union or the Russian Federation, or the Chinese PLA, or the nincompoops over in Iran and North Korea and so forth. So, even if it’s an American, you still don’t wanna answer that question because you don’t know who they are. And you’re not supposed to be revealing that information.

“So, it takes a lot of hard tracking and digging after networking and it can take years and years and years. And then you develop the security clearances and then the authorization for need to know that appropriately allow you access to that information. Then you find out, ‘Hey, yeah. It’s there, it’s true.’ On the other hand, sometimes the information does come out on its own but it doesn’t come out in the way that UFOlogy likes to fantasize about it. It comes out only to specific people who have specific talents and skills, who have security clearances. They may not have the need to know, but they could have the need to know if they were presented with that requirement or if they were presented by a crash retrieval program and saying, ‘Hey, I want to bring in gentlemen X, Y, Z. He’s got the security clearances, but he doesn’t have the need to know and I want to give him the need to know because I need his talent to help us solve this problem with the crash retrieval reverse, engineering studies.’ So then they will do that. That’s the official way of doing it. That’s how you officially get brought in.”

(The following paragraph may be describing similar situations to what happened between Dr. Davis and Admiral Wilson in 2002. But was the Admiral’s car a SCIF? Can a car be made into a SCIF? Or did that conversation take place somewhere else? Are the Wilson/Davis documents littered with little inaccuracies here and there to throw folks off the trail and to provide cover later on if the document ever leaked? Or is everything within them 100% accurate? Maybe the conversation between Dr. Davis and Wilson was more casual than what Davis describes below and a SCIF wasn’t needed? ~Joe)

Dr. Eric Davis: “The other, unofficial way is…you gain, you build a level of trust among certain individuals, and people within the network who, after a few years of knowing them, you work with them, they know who you are, they know what you’re capable of, they know your competencies and they want to bring the topic up on an informal basis with you. Sometimes not even on an informal basis. They may wanna bring the topic up outside the realm of the security apparatus but, within a SCIF. In other words, there’s going to be no passing of security clearances to establish that…I am going to be allowed to be read in on the crash approval program but they’ll bring me into a SCIF and want to talk informally in the SCIF about it. And say, ‘Well, this is what we can tell you but there’s things that we can’t tell you. And we can tell you those things if you can get the next-level security and authorization to get the need to know, and then we can do business with you. But before we get to that point, here’s what we can tell you without having to cross that red line of the need to know and the proper clearances.’

“So you work this stuff out over a number of years, you build networks, and you find the right people. And you don’t do it by knocking on doors, you do it just through the happenstance of having a contract with somebody or a subcontract. And you’re interfacing with them. And then, lo and behold, you find out they’re the vice president or the president of one of the legacy aerospace corporations and they happen to be a PhD of a STEM discipline all on their own accord. And it just so happens that they were a guy that worked on the crash retrieval program. Oh, lo and behold! And then they find out that you’re working on the UFO subject for a DoD program. And they’ll say, ‘Oh, that’s wonderful! You’re officially a government contractor or subcontractor. And you’re working with another aerospace company. Okay, well you’re working on UFOs? Well guess what? We did it too! And we don’t do it now but we did it in the past and here’s what we can tell you, off the record, and here’s what we can’t. And you’ll have to go another step before we can tell you what it is on the record. But it has to be through that, again, you have to have the right clearances, you have to have the authorization for the need to know and then you can get the full story.’

“So here’s the thing that you should know…is that the crash retrieval program is [a] very small program. It is not a massive, huge government infrastructure. It’s a very poorly-funded program and it hasn’t actually, probably hasn’t had any money for a while. I do know that the program was terminated in 1989 for lack of progress in reverse engineering, anything that they had, any of the hardware that they had. And they’ll resurrect it every, maybe so often, so many years go by and they’ll try it again. And they just don’t succeed because compartmentalization is a killer. Scientists cannot communicate with other scientists to get help.

“It’s like, I’m doing this first semester, differential calculus, homework problem, I’m doing the rocket equation and I am stuck on the boundary conditions so I can come up with the right solution that gives me the right answer to the propellant mass flow rate. And I’m having a hard time. So what do I gotta do? I’m missing something, I just don’t know what I’m supposed to do with this to be able to solve this differential equation. So I gotta call my buddy who’s in my class. He’s a math whiz and he’s the one that gets straight A’s. So I’m going to call him on the phone and say, ‘Help me with this, this is what I got done and this is what I’m stuck on.’ And he’ll explain it to me. Well, if you’re in the crash retrieval program, or any black program for that matter, and you come up with a technical roadblock, you can’t call your best buddy or any expert that you don’t know and just call them cold and say, ‘Hey, this is who I am, this is what I’m doing, this is what I’m working on. I’m stuck. What do you suggest I do to get past this roadblock?’ (laughs) You can’t do that.

Alejandro Rojas “Nick Pope talks about the same problem when they did the Condign report. They genuinely had some intelligence people who wanted to look into the issue. But they had no access, they couldn’t talk to anybody who had…they weren’t cleared for all of these things they wanted to write about so they just had to speculate.”

Dr. Eric Davis “Yeah. And this isn’t just unique to the crash retrieval program. This type of problem is unique to all the black programs that the DoD has. DHS has them. The military service branches has them. The Department of Energy has their own version. The purpose of a black program with a special access program security wrap is you gotta limit the information and exposure to the information, to as few people as possible in order to produce the maximum security protection against espionage by the enemy. And so that limits who you can work with that, that also is cleared to know. That limits the amount of experts that you can have working with you. And gosh, if your small group of experts are stumped, you’re screwed, because you basically can’t call your buddies or somebody you know, or somebody you know of, who’s an expert better than you or a bigger expert on the subject, at a university, either near you or at a university across the country. You can’t call those guys, you can’t even read them in because you’re not supposed to acknowledge some of these black…most of these black programs are not supposed to be acknowledged.

“So, for that basis, you don’t legitimately exist so you can’t tip off the university expert that there’s a program, by calling him and saying I’m stuck on something, you just can’t do it. If it’s really dire and it’s a problem that really, the expertise is desperately needed outside of the cleared group, then the program manager and the security officer will write a justification to go reach out to the university expert and read him in on the program and they’ll have to be given security clearances and sign the NDA and fill out the SF-86 and all those forms and get the DD 254 filled out. And then they’ll be told, you die with this information. You can never talk about it until after you die. (laughs) Till after you’re dead.

“So that’s how that works. And it happens in cruise missile programs, it happens mostly in programs involving covert, clandestine operations and their logistics. It happens with nuclear weapons development and deployment. It happens with intelligence operations and it happens with technology development. And the interesting thing is that today, there’s a big move away from special access programs. They’re extremely costly to maintain. Extremely costly. Let me tell you this: The cost to maintain information, personnel and physical security for special access program can be tens of times larger than the cost of the program itself. So let’s say the program is building the B-21 bomber, right? Let’s just assume, let’s say for the sake of argument, that the bomber project is $50 billion total. That’s probably not even reasonable. The security for that is going to be could be as much as ten times higher. I mean, it could be. Stretched out over a number of years, of course, not all at once. So it could be as much as ten times higher because you’ve gotta maintain all kinds of security. Now that’s a hypothetical.”


On June 24th, 2018, Dr. Davis was back on Coast to Coast AM with George Knapp, Dr. Davis was asked to give his opinion on where we’d be now if AATIP/BAASS hadn’t lost funding.

“…the crash retrieval program, it’s still there. And we would have gotten into the crash retrieval program using the legal authorizations that would open the door [for] us. And we would have gotten access to it and that would have exponentially increased our knowledge base and understanding since we don’t have a Tic Tac in possession right now. We’re not in possession of one.”

Once again, he went on to explain that the crash retrieval program has been in hibernation and defunded since 1989 due to decades of failure in trying to reverse engineer the technology. However, he thinks the effort will probably be, “resurrected whenever our current physics and engineering and material sciences catches up to a level that our decision makers think they would be confident in being able to reopen that can of worms again, to investigate, to do research on reverse engineering.”

Knapp pushed for more.

George Knapp: “Well that makes it sound like there’s something to analyze or to reverse engineer?”

Dr. Eric Davis: “Yeah, they got…I’d say, you know, if you’re going to throw your bets on Roswell, your bet’s really good. Del Rio, Texas, that was the 1950s case, that’s another one. And the other ones I won’t bring up because those are still classified.”

George Knapp: “Oh.”

Dr. Eric Davis: “And they have not been investigated to my knowledge. I’m sorry, they have not been revealed or published, to my knowledge. So, without knowing that that’s the case, I won’t talk about it any further. But we have crash retrievals and they’ve been analyzed and unfortunately, our laboratory diagnostic technologies and our material sciences and the understanding of physics that we had, were not advanced enough to be able to make heads or tails of what it is, what they had their hands on. The customer, being a certain government agency, decided to just pull the plug on funding so that was the end of it.”

George Knapp: “Well, I think I know what tomorrow’s headline is…”

Dr. Eric Davis. (Laughs) “Yeah.”

A month later, Dr. Davis was on “UFOs Classified with Erica Lukes” and once again he discussed crash retrievals of UFOs. This time, Roswell was the focus.

Dr. Eric Davis: “Roswell was a real event. It happened. And it was a stupid, phony cover-up that General Ramey was ordered by Washington to institute in order to shut the story down as quick as possible because of what they had recovered. It was pretty spectacular. They just didn’t want it getting out to the Soviets and anybody else that they had recovered that craft and the bodies.  So yeah, we’ve got a crash retrieval and Roswell was there. And I disagree with John Alexander when he says that he couldn’t find any evidence of it. But Phil Corso made clear that there was evidence. I’ve done background investigation on Phil Corso that went beyond what John was capable of doing and I verified Corso’s story and verified every word he said about Roswell. So, it happened.

Erica Lukes (EL): “And I just gotta clarify because people hear Corso and their hackles come up. I think that probably his book was embellished by Bill Birnes but correct me if I’m wrong.”

Dr. Eric Davis: “Yeah. If you read the hand-written manuscript that Phil wrote of his autobiography, you’ll find the very small section in the book where he talks about the Roswell crash. How when he was a retired civilian, his good buddy, Lt. General Arthur Trudeau, had hired him at the Army research agency. This has been long time since I read this story so I might get a bit of the details wrong. His job as a civilian was to handle the crash retrieval materials and assign them out to the various defense contractors for analysis and reverse engineering studies. And so that proved out to be true. And so, it’s there. And there were several other crash retrievals that have happened after that.”

“Davis went on to describe the so-called ‘Collins Elite,’ as unorganized, small cliques and individual fundamentalist, evangelical Christians within the government and DoD, who think UFOs and their occupants are satanic and their technology is demonic. Whenever these folks are in the chain of command, they will do everything within their power to expose, obstruct, block and shut down any program related to UFOs. They will do whatever it takes to keep these programs from being implemented, from being funded or from getting new funding. Davis believes it’s pathetic and based on fear, incompetence and careerism. He added, “That is what goes on inside the military intelligence community where the topic of UFOs comes up. And that’s why the crash retrieval program was buried as black and deep as it could be buried. To keep it protected from those morons.”

<End Dr. Eric Davis MegaBlog Excerpt>


On the January 28th, 2018 edition of “Coast to Coast AM” with George Knapp, Dr. Hal Puthoff discussed UFO crashes.

George Knapp: Do you think crashes have happened? Or can you say?

(There was a very long pause from Puthoff before he answered ~Joe)

Hal Puthoff: Detailed proof that crashes have happened would be still a highly classified piece of data.

George Knapp: Well, that’s an answer of sorts.

Hal Puthoff: My opinion is that there are probably at least materials. Now it wouldn’t necessarily have to be a crash of an entire craft but it could be a piece blown off and whatever by a lightning strike or a missile or whatever. So I’m not surprised to find out that there’s discussion and material being available.


More on Roswell…

In 2006, Jacques Vallée told a French FM Station, “There is a Roswell secret, but Ufology’s error is to make this the case number one.”

Luis Elizondo has brought up Roswell a few times in the past. The first (or one of the first) time Elizondo mentioned it was at the October 27th, 2018, Italian UFO Conference (Centro Ufologico Nazionale – CUN) in Rome, Italy as he discussed the history of the U.S. government and UFOs.

Elizondo Lecturing in Rome


The slide reads, “U.S. Army recovers crashed vehicle near Roswell, New Mexico and initial reports of crashed UFO are provided to local media.”

And with that slide on the screen, he said:

“And later, in the 1940s, we had the Roswell incident. I’m not going to speculate in this room what crashed at Roswell. But those of you who are familiar with the world of intelligence, know that a military response is usually symmetrical to the incident. A crashed weather balloon does not usually merit the response of a colonel, several flat bed, military vehicles and an armed force.”

~Luis Elizondo

In the James Fox documentary, “The Phenomenon,” over eight minutes is spent making the case that a vehicle of unknown origin crashed in the desert of Roswell, New Mexico in July 1947 and was covered up by the U.S. government. Former New Mexico Governor, Bill Richardson shared some strong statements in the film.

“My suspicion is that the Roswell incident did happen and something, maybe not from our universe, went down there. And we should allow the American people to make a judgment on what that might have been, by disclosing it. I mean, this is probably the most blatant case of overreaction to what is national security. The public has a right to know.”

~Former New Mexico Governor, Bill Richardson

On October 4th, 2020, not long after the film became available to view online, Elizondo tweeted this:

“Folks, I am normally silent and careful not to endorse products (even if I support them); however, I am making an exception in this case. Although not part of the production, the movie by [James] Fox “The Phenomenon” is the one worth watching. It says things I cant! It’s accurate, it’s verified, and it’s REAL! I know this because while at the Pentagon, we had the files. Yes, many of you will already know SOME of the information, but not all of it. Literally thousands of files have yet to be released that only bolster this production.  Once they are, you will realize just how on the mark this movie is. Definitely takes the stigma out of the conversation and puts the focus on us government-types that have kept the secret WAY too long! This movie reinforces the obvious coverup that I was privy to…and you all were victim.”

~Luis Elizondo

It appears that he’s trying his best to tell us what he knows about Roswell without actually crossing the line of sharing classified material or what he was told by others. In an interview with Nico A, on the French show, “Dossier X,” uploaded to YouTube on April 27th of this year, Elizondo dropped a massive bomb on the crash retrieval narrative.


Nico: “The first military part [where the] U.S. has been involved in this UFO subject was the Air Force in 1947. We have no idea about what really happened there. I’m nor talking about UFO, whatever, I’m just thinking something happened and the Air Force was involved. And when you look at the timeline in 1994, the Air Force released a report saying, The Roswell Report: Case Closed. What do you think about this position by the Air Force on this subject?”

Luis Elizondo: “You asked me quite a few questions, let me first start with Roswell. Roswell…something happened. That’s pretty clear. The details of what actually happened is still up for debate but there was enough significance to that event or events that predicated an official U.S. response. And not just operationally, meaning the deployment of people for a recovery mission, but also from a public affairs, PAO perspective, where they actually had put out some statement about what happened in Roswell. I obviously wasn’t around for Roswell, you know…I did see anecdotal information. But you said something…that that was the 1st time the U.S. government was engaged and  I’ll share with you, that may not necessarily be true. There may be anecdotal information that indicates that perhaps the U.S. government was involved even before that, in purported, recovery-type activities.

Nico: “You mean probably 1942, in Los Angeles or something?”

Luis Elizondo: “I don’t wanna elaborate, yet. I think some information’s gonna come to light here, probably pretty soon, about some interesting incidents. Again, it’s not up to me…there are some people out there that are willing to come forward, I think. I’m just providing you the information that was indicated to me. I think we need to be careful jumping to presumptions or assumptions that Roswell was the first event similar to what we’re thinking about. That may not be necessarily true.”


What does the government know? In a November 2019, Steven Greenstreet, host of “The Basement Office,” interviewed Dr. Davis about his role in the Pentagon’s UFO program, the Wilson/Davis notes and more. I wrote an entire blog about it and that can be read here.

Steven Greenstreet (SG): “Does the government know what’s going on and they’re keeping it a secret?”

Dr. Eric Davis (ED): “I think so. Yeah, I think there’s a lot of evidence that the government has known, but the problem is, it’s so outside the realm of of human comprehension that they can’t deal with it on a legislative basis, they can’t deal with it on a military, operational basis, they can’t deal with it on the basis of a presidential policy. So they just ignore it and just sweep it under the rug and let a finite group of scientists and engineers and investigators work together to either getfunded to investigate and evaluate it or they don’t get funding for long periods of time and nothing gets done! They just hold onto the information and it just collects cobwebs in the classified, storage warehouses.”

SG: “Let me bring up…before…we’re pressed for time…tell me about the Admiral Wilson transcript.”

ED: “I can’t discuss that.”

SG: “You can’t discuss?”

ED: “I’m not at liberty to discuss it.”

SG: “Because you’re all over…you’re all over it.”

ED: “Oh, I know. Yeah. They were leaked out of Ed Mitchell’s estate and there’s nothing I can say about it.”

SG: “I mean, can you speak to the veracity of them?”

ED: “No, I can’t, I can’t address that at all. I won’t answer any questions on the Admiral Wilson notes.”

SG: “You don’t wanna speak to…at least whether these are…”

ED: “You know, they’re purportedly classified information. I can’t…I’m not at liberty to confirm or verify any aspect of those notes. You know, when you have security clearances, that’s something you don’t want to violate because the Department of Justice – under the Obama administration and it’s continued under the Trump administration – policies, is they will vigorously prosecute anybody with security clearances who will go out of their way to discuss any classified information that got leaked or released into the public illegally, so…or through other means.”

SG: “Okay.”

ED: “So I can’t address those notes in any form or fashion.”

SG: “So, Canadian Grant Cameron uploaded fifteen pages of documents (We still don’t know who uploaded the documents. ~Joe), allegedly notes taken from Dr. Eric Davis in 2002. So, whoever this Grant Cameron is…are you familiar with who this person is?”

ED: “Oh, I used to know him. Yeah, he’s a Canadian UFO investigator. He doesn’t investigate UFO phenomena, what he investigates is…his big claim to fame was investigating the U.S. president’s role in the UFO history.”

SG: “Where did he get these fifteen pages from?”

ED: “I don’t know. I’ve never seen whatever the pages are that he has. I haven’t seen those.”

SG: “Like, here is a…what appears to be a letter to you from a…Will Miller?”

ED: “Ah. Okay. All right. Well, he uploaded it but I can’t address any of it, so.”

SG: “All right, so is that a yes, these are real, these are true?”

ED: “I won’t, I won’t give you an answer (laughs).”


Is there any hard evidence that Lockheed is the aerospace company, or one of the aerospace companies that allegedly has debris or an entire craft of unknown origin? No. Is there any hard evidence that any of those companies have tried to reverse engineer non-human tech? No. Researcher Keith Basterfield, who always puts out excellent work on his blog, wrote about how, “Aerospace companies, particularly in the United States, have had a long history of interest in Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP.) It is a natural fit. UAP exhibit a number of ‘observables’ which would be valuable to an aerospace company, in terms of understanding advanced physics; advanced propulsion systems, and in general, advanced technology. It has also been suggested by some, that if you were looking to reverse engineer an advanced object, then why not bury such a project within a private aerospace company? The Wilson/Davis document, of course, implies that this has already been done.” Read his complete blog here.

One of the most popular stories surrounds the late Ben Rich, the 2nd director of Lockheed’s famed Skunk Works division. Numerous comments have been attributed to him but the two that are repeated the most were allegedly said at a 1993 alumni speech at UCLA.

1) “We already have the means to travel among the stars, but these technologies are locked up in black projects, and it would take an act of God to ever get them out to benefit humanity. Anything you can imagine, we already know how to do it.”

2) “We now have technology to take ET home.”

If Rich really said that, it would be huge. But since we don’t have any audio of his comments, it’s impossible to know if he was joking or taken out of context. Area 51 Lecturer/journalist, Peter Merlin, made an excellent argument why those quotes might not be accurate.

One physical piece of evidence came in the form of a letter that Basterfield wrote about in his blog:

“Over the years, much has been made of certain statements made by Ben Rich of Lockheed. In 1986 Ben Rich was Executive V.P. and General manager, Advanced Development Projects, Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Company. In a letter dated 10 July 1986 from researcher John Andrews to Rich, Andrews asked if Rich’s beliefs covered both manmade and extraterrestrial UFOs? In a response dated 21 July 1986, on Lockheed letterhead, Rich replied:

“Yes, I’m a believer in both categories. I feel everything is possible. Many of our manmade UFOs are Un Funded Opportunities.”


Rich also, allegedly, told Andrews, “There are two types of UFOs — the ones we build and the ones ‘they’ build. We learned from both crash retrievals and actual ‘hand-me-downs.'” Andrews also claims that, “It was Ben Rich’s opinion that the public should not be told (about UFOs and extraterrestrials). He believed they could not handle the truth — ever.”

If you search online, you’ll see there are other folks who claim to have heard Rich say various things about these matters, including a supposed death-bed confession that, “we have things out in the desert that are fifty years beyond what you could possibly comprehend. If you have seen it on Star Wars or Star Trek, we’ve been there done that, or decided it was not worth the effort.”

Without a confirmation (a letter or audio) from Rich, there’s no way to know if he said any of this. I have said numerous times that I think we may have cracked gravity and that some of the triangle UFOs might be ours, but my confidence level on that is not very high.


Final Thoughts

I believe Admiral Thomas Wilson met with Dr. Eric Davis in October of 2002 and told Dr. Davis what he heard from the program manager of a SAP (Special Access Program) that attempted to reverse engineer an intact craft that was not made on this earth and not made by human hands.

I think Admiral Wilson was told the truth by the program manager about what that SAP was all about but I can’t go as far as saying, “I believe.”

I may have this next part totally wrong.

If Lockheed is one of the contractors that has the debris from a UFO, why did Dr. Davis try to throw cold water on it? As he himself said, “You’re going to be lied to because that’s the rule.” When he asked Admiral Wilson the name of the contractor that ran the SAP, Wilson refused to tell him because it was a “core secret.” Is the location of the crash retrieval program still a core secret? In my MegaBlog, I quoted a Bill Sweetman article that said, “An unacknowledged SAP – a black program – is a program which is considered so sensitive that the fact of its existence is a ‘core secret’, defined in USAF regulations as ‘any item, progress, strategy or element of information, the compromise of which would result in unrecoverable failure.’ In other words, revealing the existence of a black program would undermine its military value. Confronted with the unauthorized use of a program name or a specific question, an ‘accessed’ individual may deny all knowledge of a program – as he should, because its existence is a core secret, and a mere ‘no comment’ is tantamount to confirmation. The questioner – who may not be aware that an accessed individual must respond with a denial – will believe that denial and spread it further.”

Although I have no idea of knowing for sure, I don’t think Dr. Davis is “accessed” to the crash retrieval program. So why did the mention of Lockheed prompt such a strong rebuttal from him? I don’t know and can only speculate. Maybe he felt it was his patriotic duty to throw any adversaries off the trail? Or, maybe the BAASS source was wrong and Senator Reid’s search would have ended in failure if he had been allowed to see behind the curtain at the aerospace giant? Davis gave us three possibilities about the BAASS source and the last one was, “he/she is reporting very old, unfounded rumors.” And Reid said, “I was told for decades that Lockheed had some of these retrieved materials.” Is it possible Lockheed was the place but at some point in the past, everything was moved. I’ve heard about “things” being moved (Lockheed wasn’t mentioned) from a very reputable source.

Remember what Wilson said to journalist Billy Cox in 2020 about Wilson/Davis. “Those notes are really detailed – it’s like somebody wrote a fiction piece…But it never happened, trust me. There are so many things in those notes that are demonstrably inaccurate. And I don’t know how I could prove it, but I haven’t been to Las Vegas since 1979, 80.”

If, as I believe, Wilson and Davis did meet 2002, was Wilson just doing his duty and protecting a core secret by denying it repeatedly to Cox and others? Was Dr. Davis doing the same thing when I asked him about Lockheed?

Hopefully, my rambling and speculation here doesn’t offend Wilson or Dr. Davis. I’m just doing my best to try to figure out what’s going on.

I think Senator Reid’s caution about sharing his thoughts on crashes and/or retrievals of materials is based, in part, on not wanting to destroy his reputation. But when you get down to it, for him, seeing is believing and until someone lets him into Lockheed and shows him authenticated pieces of a UFO, he’ll continue to be cautious. He might suspect they have an intact craft or materials but he can’t believe or know that without further evidence or proof. 

I believe Christopher Mellon, after being shown evidence that’s been collected over the years, has changed his mind and now considers it possible that a private contractor has debris or material from a UFO, locked up and hidden in a SAP. It’s also evidence from Mellon’s comments to Knapp on Coast to Coast AM that he’s worried about his reputation and like Reid, needs to know for sure before he comments with any authority.

In my opinion, what Luis Elizondo believes about a crash retrieval program came from his contacts with people who have worked in other UFO-related programs/SAPs (see the comments of Dr. Davis on how that happens), including the one (or ones) that have the debris/materials. I do not believe he was read into the crash retrieval program but I think Elizondo knows a lot more than he has shared thus far.

I believe the progress we’ve made in the last 3.5 years has been nothing short of amazing. I’ve been at this since 1996 and I’ve never seen anything close to this. When Fox News talks about UFOs, Harry Reid and it’s in a positive manner, you know things are looking up for those of us who want the truth.


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